RAINMAKER DISMASTED OFF HATTERAS IN GALE

[NoStrings]

Did RM have a radar? If yes, what was it? And was it on? If there was any moisture or hail in the cell, it should have shown up.

a well equipped boat like that must have had radar, whats your point?

Technically speaking, if your vessel is equipped with a radar, you're required to stand a radar watch. Its in the COLREGS. If your radar is on, and your paying attention to it, and you don't have the rain clutter turned off, you can detect and track squalls. We do it every night once we hit the tropics on the way to HI.

I'll defer to Mark M., but I imagine that a squall/cell capable of generating a 70kt burst is going to up in the atmosphere probably carrying ice, and moving with some forward velocity. IOW, it might have been detectable before it walloped them.

We had a great time of it in Tobago Cays one week, betting on who could plot the closest TOA.

Not if you don't have the power available to run it 24 hours a day. Which sailboats tend to struggle with. Every 20 minutes on a monohull and 15 minutes for speeds over 15 knots does the trick.

I ran mine on watchstanding mode for 12 hours/day (always at night) until we hit the tropics...then we ran it all night to track squalls...and we weren't trying to avoid them. We were trying to determine which ones we could catch.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Commercial pilot here: Absent Doppler radar, which I have never seen on a boat or a low/medium end airplane, 30 knots and 90 knots could look about the same on radar. I couldn't make a determination like that on standard airplane weather radar that is DESIGNED for weather first and navigation second.

I have been hit by those things a few times and it is like Satan's Leafblower suddenly opening up on you. Not fun.

 

[frozenhawaiian]

Commercial pilot here: Absent Doppler radar, which I have never seen on a boat or a low/medium end airplane, 30 knots and 90 knots could look about the same on radar. I couldn't make a determination like that on standard airplane weather radar that is DESIGNED for weather first and navigation second.

I have been hit by those things a few times and it is like Satan's Leafblower suddenly opening up on you. Not fun.

christ that must have sucked, microburst on an airplane

 

[NoStrings]

You can easily determine forward speed of a squall by plotting the range and bearing rates if there is enough moisture in the cell. Don't turn the rain clutter knob to off. Now, will you be able to KNOW the intensity of the embedded up and downdrafts? No, not in an absolute sense.

There's another thing...these kind of downbursts are frequently preceded by precipitous drops in temperature. My brother calls it "the harbinger", it gets cold, we know the breeze is coming on and he goes below to bed. I wonder if the fully enclosed cockpits of these cats isolates the crew from the kind of atmospheric observations that most of us get on the backs of our necks?

 

[frozenhawaiian]

You can easily determine forward speed of a squall by plotting the range and bearing rates if there is enough moisture in the cell. Don't turn the rain clutter knob to off. Now, will you be able to KNOW the intensity of the embedded up and downdrafts? No, not in an absolute sense. But if you see something hauling ass, you should get a fairly decent idea.

I'm not gonna bother saying it again, I've already said it 3 times....

 

[NoStrings]

You can easily determine forward speed of a squall by plotting the range and bearing rates if there is enough moisture in the cell. Don't turn the rain clutter knob to off. Now, will you be able to KNOW the intensity of the embedded up and downdrafts? No, not in an absolute sense. But if you see something hauling ass, you should get a fairly decent idea.

I'm not gonna bother saying it again, I've already said it 3 times....

Take a fucking class then, and quit arguing with me dumbass.

 

[frozenhawaiian]

You can easily determine forward speed of a squall by plotting the range and bearing rates if there is enough moisture in the cell. Don't turn the rain clutter knob to off. Now, will you be able to KNOW the intensity of the embedded up and downdrafts? No, not in an absolute sense. But if you see something hauling ass, you should get a fairly decent idea.

I'm not gonna bother saying it again, I've already said it 3 times....

Take a fucking class then, and quit arguing with me dumbass.

guess 3 times wasn't enough, just because you see it and know what it is, doesn't mean you have enough time to get out of it's way. there we go, that 4 times. oh and for the record I have taken a class. I'm USCG licensed and have been run through the USCG meteorology course, weather routing course and radar observer course and the ECDIS course just for good measure.

 

[eastbay]

after reading part 1. it sounds like a textbook microburst. scary shit. microburst can bring a rig down without any sails up at all. not much you can do about it.

Here we go again...... it does NOT bring a rig down, it flips the boat over first. Unless something is screwed up. And "without any sails up at all" is pure hyperbole.

Of course saying so is slightly, um, hyperbolic.

 

[frozenhawaiian]

after reading part 1. it sounds like a textbook microburst. scary shit. microburst can bring a rig down without any sails up at all. not much you can do about it.

Here we go again...... it does NOT bring a rig down, it flips the boat over if first. Unless something is screwed up. And "without any sails up at all" is pure hyperbole.

Of course saying so is slightly, um, hyperbolic.

fair enough on "without sails being up", to many variables to really make such a broad/general statement.

though I would hazard to say if there's a weak point or fault in a vessels standing rigging the violent knockdown that a microburst can cause is absolutely enough to cause standing rigging to fail. though in fairness a weak point or fault in standing rigging would fall under your criteria of "something screwed up"

 

[NoStrings]

So, if I was say, sailing (sort of) in winds that were consistently at 60-65 kts (storm jib, no main), I should expect my rig to come down in a bigger gust? Or are you claiming that the extremely localized nature of a downburst makes them more violent, even at an equivalent windspeed?

 

[frozenhawaiian]

So, if I was say, sailing (sort of) in winds that were consistently at 60-65 kts (storm jib, no main), I should expect my rig to come down in a bigger gust? Or are you claiming that the extremely localized nature of a downburst makes them more violent, even at an equivalent windspeed?

depends on your rig as to whether or not it would come down more than 60-65. what I'm saying is that if the windspeed doubles(or more) inthe blink of an eye as is common when microbursts occur that it puts massive stress on the rig, a safe amount of sail for 40 knots isn't safe is the windspeed suddenly becomes 70kts. neither of those were the point I was trying to make

the point I was trying to make in regards to radar is that even if a powerful squall is detected on the vessels radar if it's moving at 70kts and you're in its path you have very little time to react and basically no chance to get out of it's way.

 

[NoStrings]

Well, I happen to know that if I can intentionally get in the way, I can conversely stall the boat and let it pass in front of me. Squalls are not major wx systems, and bursts within them are even more localized. They also tend to move at the speed of the weather system, or tradewinds in which they're embedded. Sure, absolutely, you can have a big burst that nails you in the wrong place at the wrong time. I began this line of questioning by asking if they had the ability to detect and plot squalls. That is all. The answer is really a yes or no. Not a yes, so what.

As for rigs tumbling in a spike...not supposed to happen man. I've seen gusts to 83 in my slip, and half of the boats in HI would be rig free if that were the case.

 

[captpiratedog]

I've been in one of those micro burst things and it was some scary shit. We saw it coming though and the boat was an old 33 Rhodes ( not some fancy carbon cat), The previous owner had re rigged it with a thicker dia. mast and rigging. We basically hurricane prepped the boat and took everything down and closed all ports n seacocks in case we rolled. It looked like an atom bomb under a thunderhead. When it hit it was hail n white out rigging screaming higher than I had ever heard in any hurricane that I had been in. I had to keep the engine maxed and the wind on my ass to keep from being knocked down..it took about an hour to get out of it doing small crab walking turn in the troughs ..there was no going against it..we tried that,, I turned around in the trough and when the wind caught the bow on the crest it knocked us all the way over and spun that full keel boat around like a toy. if they had sails up in that shit well... Id imagine the mast would be bending or something would break..its a lot of wind force

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

...

I'll defer to Mark M., but I imagine that a squall/cell capable of generating a 70kt burst is going to up in the atmosphere probably carrying ice, and moving with some forward velocity. IOW, it might have been detectable before it walloped them.

Some velocity, but not 70 kts.

How it is that a 70 kt wind coming toward you can come toward you at a slower speed than 70 kts is a mystery to me, but that's what happens.

The early report of a "white wall" convinced me we were talking about a microburst because I've seen (and shortly thereafter felt) a white wall or two.

I love the fact that I can carry radar on my phone now and I get hit by fewer thunderstorms than I did when I was young, but now and then one will still catch me. If one catches you, it might or might not contain a white wall. The radar will just show heavy rain either way. So would an on-board radar if I had one.

 

[billy backstay]

We have to wait for part 2 that is brilliant. Too funny

Come on Mate? Can't fill up the whole front page with the entire story now, must drag it out for maximum eyeballs and google traffic to show the advertisers! LOL

I thought it well written and very credible and am now of the opinion that this was NOT caused by anything other than an unexpected and very rare weather event that most of us would have been much worse prepared for. YMMV...

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I was talking more about boats than airplanes. I have hit some pretty nasty stuff flying, but not while near the ground where the microburst is a killer. My point was along the lines of even a good radar operator will not be able to point out a cell and tell you the winds involved without the kind of equipment I have never seen on a boat. Things have changed somewhat for flying in some areas with newer ATC radar, but the old standard traffic control radar showed "no rain", "rain", and "a whole metric shit-ton of rain". You coud definitely get pounded using their guidance for avoiding weather.

Commercial pilot here: Absent Doppler radar, which I have never seen on a boat or a low/medium end airplane, 30 knots and 90 knots could look about the same on radar. I couldn't make a determination like that on standard airplane weather radar that is DESIGNED for weather first and navigation second.

I have been hit by those things a few times and it is like Satan's Leafblower suddenly opening up on you. Not fun.

christ that must have sucked, microburst on an airplane

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Simple explanation:

Imagine a giant leafblower aimed at the floor. Wind velocity is 120 knots near the leaflblower, but only 30 knots 15 feet away from it. The leafblower is moving across the room at 20 knots. So ---- 120 knot winds are coming at you at 20 knots

...

I'll defer to Mark M., but I imagine that a squall/cell capable of generating a 70kt burst is going to up in the atmosphere probably carrying ice, and moving with some forward velocity. IOW, it might have been detectable before it walloped them.

Some velocity, but not 70 kts.

How it is that a 70 kt wind coming toward you can come toward you at a slower speed than 70 kts is a mystery to me, but that's what happens.

The early report of a "white wall" convinced me we were talking about a microburst because I've seen (and shortly thereafter felt) a white wall or two.

I love the fact that I can carry radar on my phone now and I get hit by fewer thunderstorms than I did when I was young, but now and then one will still catch me. If one catches you, it might or might not contain a white wall. The radar will just show heavy rain either way. So would an on-board radar if I had one.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

You guys are kind of arguing past each other. Yes you can see the cells, but no you can't always get away from them.

I have seen some so narrow boats were getting pounded 100 yards from me while I was in almost calm air. I have also seen them wide enough to wreak havoc across several counties. The first time I saw one of these storms it was miles wide, damaged our boat, and killed the on-deck crew of a Bermuda 40 near us

Well, I happen to know that if I can intentionally get in the way, I can conversely stall the boat and let it pass in front of me. Squalls are not major wx systems, and bursts within them are even more localized. They also tend to move at the speed of the weather system, or tradewinds in which they're embedded. Sure, absolutely, you can have a big burst that nails you in the wrong place at the wrong time. I began this line of questioning by asking if they had the ability to detect and plot squalls. That is all. The answer is really a yes or no. Not a yes, so what.

As for rigs tumbling in a spike...not supposed to happen man. I've seen gusts to 83 in my slip, and half of the boats in HI would be rig free if that were the case.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

But what's carrying the leafblower? The wind. At a speed much lower than the wind.

Maybe Rimas is in charge of wind?

 

[joneisberg]

Skipper reports good speeds , wind aft of the beam.

Have we enough data yet for their average from departure to rig failure?

Interested in whether report #1 data bears any resemblance to reality.

(cruising calmy at 18 to 20 knts?)

Yup, that remains the biggest thing that still doesn't add up, for me... How do you sail for 24+ hours after departing Hatteras Inlet, through a full night @ 18-20, feel "underpowered" the following morning while still making 7-10 knots under reduced sail as the weather builds, and yet only manage to cover approximately 200 miles down range from the point of departure?

Meticulous attention to safety gear and equipment required to cut free a downed rig, but no mention of heavy weather gear such as a para-anchor, or drogue... Safe to presume such gear was not carried, or simply left off the list itemized in the interview? Probably will be clarified in Part 2...

Thanks to Clean, refreshing to finally get some firsthand information...