RAINMAKER DISMASTED OFF HATTERAS IN GALE

[kent_island_sailor]

The cloud moves horizontally at X speed, dragging this whole contraption with it.

Imagine seeing this coming for you

That may not be what happened to RM though. An individual cell in clear air is easy to see and avoid - both on radar or with eyeballs. Flying or sailing, the more dangerous ones are embedded in a general area of storms and much harder to spot. It also does not have to be one little microburst. I think the "Derechio" is the name now given to a whole giant line of this stuff instead of one localized phenomanon.

But what's carrying the leafblower? The wind. At a speed much lower than the wind.

Maybe Rimas is in charge of wind?

 

[6924]

great advertorial on front page today -

 

[estarzinger]

^^ yea. Obviously the boat was perfect and no-one involved made any mistakes.

"RAINMAKER departed the dock around 0130. . . . At 1350, I wake up to a gust hitting the side of the hull" = 36 hours from dock out to first wind gusts, exactly as we determined earlier in the thread.
"We expected to motor the entire way down, about 45nm". = so 245nm dock-out to incident.
245nm/36hrs = 6.8kts
"running down waves to 18-20 knots of boatspeed. . . . later a little underpowered sailing 7-10 knots" = ?? Some new math going on, or just pure GB marketing inserted into the story??

II am not a big fan of skippers who depend on Commanders as much as this one seemed to have. I have quite a bit of experience using them, and hmmm, let me say I consider them of 'secondary value', especially with 'disruptive' boats like the GB.

I had dinner with a gunboat crew (pro) after their transatlantic crossing and they said they just dropped all their sails in squalls.

And don't mistake preparing ditch kits with actually being prepared.

And they made the mayday call pretty much immediately.

 

[Edith Bicknell]

The first mistake they made was relying on Commanders 😧

 

[rumfustian]

Newbie sticking his nose in here.

I spent many, many years contributing to racing kart and vintage car forums. The best forums are always run by people like Clean, those with passion, knowledge, and connections within the sport/hobby. I don't have the financials for SA but I'll bet it's more a labor of love than a goldmine and even if Clean makes a decent living from this he's probably working his ass off.

Sponsors make these sites possible and if Gunboat is a sponsor they have every right to expect fair treatment from Clean and SA, it's a private business after-all. I quit posting in another forum when their owner decided it was OK for certain advertisers/sponsors to lie and slander an awesome American company that was doing great things for our sport.

Serializing the account of what happened here is just plain good salesmanship, I know I'll be back to read the rest of the story.... Getting a first hand account of what can go wrong when you have every advantage is golden for those of us with lesser means. I sailed quite a bit when I was younger but stupidly stopped and now find myself playing catch-up. The material in this forum is the next best thing to being on the water IMHO.

Cheers,

John

 

[AYACHT]

"Everything was chill, wind variable for a while, then coming in gradually from the SW and building through the night. We took our first reef before nightfall and had a great sail all night long under 1st reef and solent in 15-20 TWS, running down waves to 18-20 knots of boatspeed, heading around 100-120 to keep the wind on our starboard hip. The boat felt great and balanced. Brian had brought a bunch of serious fishing gear aboard, and we’d nailed a monster yellowfin tuna in the stream – I mention that because we were all feeling quite lucky to be cruising so calmly at 18-20 knots that night while eating fish tacos that had been swimming a few hour earlier."

Must have had one hell-of a weight on the fishing gear to get it in the water at those speeds

 

[kent_island_sailor]

4th mode fishing :blink:

 

[Edith Bicknell]

4th mode fishing :blink:

No, DTFG

Disruptive Tech Fishing Gear

 

[estarzinger]

"I’ve sailed about 30,000 NM on Gunboats in winds up to 65knots"

(1) honest/true winds up to 65kts are extremely rare offshore (except in hurricanes). You usually have to have F*&Ked up pretty badly to see that. In our time (rather more than this skipper's), we only saw low 60's twice and it was my F*&k up both times that got us into it.

(2) it is 2,600nm from the canaries to the Caribbean. And 1,500nm from Hatteras to Caribbean. So, at his age, this skipper had actually done 11 transatlantic equivalents, all on gunboats?

​I will comment that the three things sailors love to and systematically exaggerate are: wind speeds, miles, and passage speed. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

 

[slip knot]

"Ive sailed about 30,000 NM on Gunboats in winds up to 65knots"

(1) honest/true winds up to 65kts are extremely rare offshore (except in hurricanes). You usually have to have F*&Ked up pretty badly to see that. In our time (rather more than this skipper's), we only saw low 60's twice and it was my F*&k up both times that got us into it.

(2) it is 2,600nm from the canaries to the Caribbean. And 1,500nm from Hatteras to Caribbean. So, at his age, this skipper had actually done 11 transatlantic equivalents?

​I will comment that the three things sailors love to and systematically exaggerate are: wind speeds, miles, and passage speed. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

The 30,000 miles is only in Gunboats, I would assume that he has many more than that to get a job skippering them around.

 

[mcsailor0303]

Great interview Clean. Really looking forward to part 2!

 

[estarzinger]

The 30,000 miles is only in Gunboats, I would assume that he has many more than that to get a job skippering them around.

So he has done 11 transatlantic equivalents in GBs? And more in other boats. At his age?

My post above may be 'unfair'.

It was a reaction to the tone of the article.

Experienced seamen are the most honest and self critical people around. They have to be because mother nature does not leave you room for illusions.

So, I have little time for 'seamen' who lose boats and don't learn anything or take any responsibility. And that is the clear tone of the article (Part 1).

I hope, would rather believe, it was written by PJ's PR department, than by the skipper. But if so, heaven help his owners.

As an aside, the Rafiki MAIB investigation report is finished/out for comment. We should see it soonish (in government time). They do a nice job, and are a service to the seamen and sailing community. Wish we had that same learning ethic on the US side of the pond

 

[dolphinmaster]

Simple explanation:

Imagine a giant leafblower aimed at the floor. Wind velocity is 120 knots near the leaflblower, but only 30 knots 15 feet away from it. The leafblower is moving across the room at 20 knots. So ---- 120 knot winds are coming at you at 20 knots

...

I'll defer to Mark M., but I imagine that a squall/cell capable of generating a 70kt burst is going to up in the atmosphere probably carrying ice, and moving with some forward velocity. IOW, it might have been detectable before it walloped them.

Some velocity, but not 70 kts.

How it is that a 70 kt wind coming toward you can come toward you at a slower speed than 70 kts is a mystery to me, but that's what happens.

The early report of a "white wall" convinced me we were talking about a microburst because I've seen (and shortly thereafter felt) a white wall or two.

I love the fact that I can carry radar on my phone now and I get hit by fewer thunderstorms than I did when I was young, but now and then one will still catch me. If one catches you, it might or might not contain a white wall. The radar will just show heavy rain either way. So would an on-board radar if I had one.

Good image!

 

[MR.CLEAN]

. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

You have no basis to think that at all, Evans other than your distrust of humanity. I can tell you right now that both Chris and his crew are very straight shooters and that Chris has an impeccable rep and a great deal of experience.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

I ran mine on watchstanding mode for 12 hours/day (always at night) until we hit the tropics...then we ran it all night to track squalls...and we weren't trying to avoid them. We were trying to determine which ones we could catch.

And precisely how many microbursts did you detect?

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Chris has or has not personally sailed Gunboats 30,000 miles?

. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

You have no basis to think that at all, Evans other than your distrust of humanity. I can tell you right now that both Chris and his crew are very straight shooters and that Chris has an impeccable rep and a great deal of experience.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Well, I happen to know that if I can intentionally get in the way, I can conversely stall the boat and let it pass in front of me. Squalls are not major wx systems, and bursts within them are even more localized. They also tend to move at the speed of the weather system, or tradewinds in which they're embedded. Sure, absolutely, you can have a big burst that nails you in the wrong place at the wrong time. I began this line of questioning by asking if they had the ability to detect and plot squalls. That is all. The answer is really a yes or no. Not a yes, so what.

As for rigs tumbling in a spike...not supposed to happen man. I've seen gusts to 83 in my slip, and half of the boats in HI would be rig free if that were the case.

Let me get this straight. You, personally, have the rare ability to 'see' a microburst on your super radar (despite the fact that a pilot just told you that is not possible) and somehow get out of its way.

That's awesome. Be careful out there or this post will come back and bite you. Or you'll get sunk by a whale who was pissed off at what a presumptuous ass you are...

 

[frozenhawaiian]

Well, I happen to know that if I can intentionally get in the way, I can conversely stall the boat and let it pass in front of me. Squalls are not major wx systems, and bursts within them are even more localized. They also tend to move at the speed of the weather system, or tradewinds in which they're embedded. Sure, absolutely, you can have a big burst that nails you in the wrong place at the wrong time. I began this line of questioning by asking if they had the ability to detect and plot squalls. That is all. The answer is really a yes or no. Not a yes, so what.

As for rigs tumbling in a spike...not supposed to happen man. I've seen gusts to 83 in my slip, and half of the boats in HI would be rig free if that were the case.

Let me get this straight. You, personally, have the rare ability to 'see' a microburst on your super radar (despite the fact that a pilot just told you that is not possible) and somehow get out of its way.

That's awesome. Be careful out there or this post will come back and bite you. Or you'll get sunk by a whale who was pissed off at what a presumptuous ass you are...

huh, clean and I are on the same page, haha that doesn't happen very often.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

"Everything was chill, wind variable for a while, then coming in gradually from the SW and building through the night. We took our first reef before nightfall and had a great sail all night long under 1st reef and solent in 15-20 TWS, running down waves to 18-20 knots of boatspeed, heading around 100-120 to keep the wind on our starboard hip. The boat felt great and balanced. Brian had brought a bunch of serious fishing gear aboard, and we’d nailed a monster yellowfin tuna in the stream – I mention that because we were all feeling quite lucky to be cruising so calmly at 18-20 knots that night while eating fish tacos that had been swimming a few hour earlier."

Must have had one hell-of a weight on the fishing gear to get it in the water at those speeds

Funny, but yet another person with reading comprehension issues.

Tuna fishing while motorsailing through high pressure in the Stream at 7-10 knots with a hoochie (though I didn't ask what color or whether it had a gang-rigged hook or not). Tacos once out of the stream when the wind had built some.

 

[frozenhawaiian]

"Ive sailed about 30,000 NM on Gunboats in winds up to 65knots"

(1) honest/true winds up to 65kts are extremely rare offshore (except in hurricanes). You usually have to have F*&Ked up pretty badly to see that. In our time (rather more than this skipper's), we only saw low 60's twice and it was my F*&k up both times that got us into it.

(2) it is 2,600nm from the canaries to the Caribbean. And 1,500nm from Hatteras to Caribbean. So, at his age, this skipper had actually done 11 transatlantic equivalents, all on gunboats?

​I will comment that the three things sailors love to and systematically exaggerate are: wind speeds, miles, and passage speed. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

Estar, you're one of the more knowledgeable contributors in these forums. I'll try to vouch for a few of the claims made by him. He's done 4 N/S trips with us as delivery crew, he's skippered or relief skippered 5 different GB's, captained one trans-Atlantic, and has done N/S deliveries on at least 2 other GBs. The boats are generally busy and well used. We averaged over 10k miles a year, every year. Other than a brief stint on a monohull (we all make mistakes) he's been on GBs since I met him 6 yrs ago. His 30k mile claim is legit, if not conservative.

As for quoted speeds, it's not abnormal to see lots of 20+ but still have low averages. We'll top 20 dozens of times an hour but still only average 10. Nothing odd or exaggerated about that.

As for the 30hr distance, I haven't asked him. If they were at Hatteras at 6am and 200 miles offshore 31 hrs later...then it certainly wasn't a blistering pace. I don't know if they gybed or not. A downwind VMG of 6.5 is pretty atrocious regardless. The only thing I can think is that 200 miles off Hatteras is sorta vague. Either way, it shows he was being appropriately cautious for the conditions. I seem to remember something about anchoring waiting for tide, too.

The unofficial 24-hr record on a GB is +/-420 miles. Our best is +/-360. Our average is probably 220 though.

As for wind claims, remember that you're an owner operator. There are MANY times we had to leave the dock in conditions that you would've sat out. Nevis to St. Barths (upwind) in 30 gusting to 50. Mykonos to ??? gusting to 70+. If it was my boat and my family I would've hung out and waited. But that's not what we are paid to do. We are paid to do what's asked of us. We explain the risks, the downsides, tell the boss that the kids and wife will hate Dad for making them sail. But at the end of the day you do what you're told and do the best you can. Despite all of what I just said...I wouldn't describe 20-30 gusting to 40, downwind, as a forecast that I would want to sit out. If you want to cross oceans you have to be willing to face 30 knots. That's not crazy. If you refuse to leave the dock if 20-30 is forecasted you'll never make it in this industry. That's not "Bounty" territory. That's another day in the NE Caribbean. That's a mellow day in the Aegean. That's 1/2 the time in the Med Sept-Nov.

lot of truth in that last statement.