RAINMAKER DISMASTED OFF HATTERAS IN GALE

[O25 dude]

great advertorial on front page today -

Agree. Reads like a press release.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Sure, in many cases the general public has absolutely no right to know what happened in incidents such as this. However, when you're plucked off a disabled yacht at government expense, there is no justification for no investigation and any investigation is, by definition, public property. This is done beautifully in the UK and also in the US for any aircraft incidents. Why it's not done routinely for small boat incidents is beyond me. But again, the owner, crew and manufacturer lost their rights to privacy in many aspects of this situation when they pushed that button.

Was there an investigation when you lost your 47-footer to a hurricane the year before that? Seems to have 'disappeared' off Lat38...

great advertorial on front page today -

Agree. Reads like a press release.

Happy to admit defeat to the great journalists who have written 'the real story'. Do you have a link?

 

[MR.CLEAN]

great advertorial on front page today -

Agree. Reads like a press release.

It's really cute when two posts come in from the same IP address, agreeing with each other. Is 6924 under the desk with your cock in his mouth, or are you just there to prove the point about people with an agenda and piling on?

 

[davidprobable]

Methinks the Lady doth protest too much........why does Clean have such an aggravated oar in this water? Surely there is no direct link between advertising revenues paid to this website and Clean's mean spirited posts in respect of opinions not supportive of this particular advertiser. I have never met Clean at any function , especially functions involving successful lawyers in private practice, so I have no idea what he is really like. He writes as though he has some knowledge of law and process, but the mean streak is also quite apparent. Mean streaks are devoid of humour or any attempt at sarcasm, but are generally a result of upbringing and sense of self worth. I leave it to the posters to further delve into Mr Clean's psych unless that has been exhausted elsewhere. A link would be nice. Anyone have any financial info on Clean? Pre SA and post SA? Fascinating stuff really.

 

[Edith Bicknell]

There is really no background on him. We only know he is the son of a carpenter who was found in a manger

in a fishing village on the south coast of Long Island. From their he apparently wandered far and wide around

the globe before settling in a big city with a large Muslim population, where he could live relatively anonymously.

There are some that think he is Spanish, although he is also claimed by tribes in Genoa.

But really, is there anywhere else to go than here to find out the story behind these guys and RM? (As best we can

get it?). Its just entertainment. Nobody is going to learn anything here aside from there was some human error combined with

shitty weather and a poorly designed / engineered boat for the conditions. After cleaning his pants, Mr. Disruptive Technology

is probably going to go back to owning a Swan, or fly south and charter for now on.

 

[John Drake]

And entertainment it shall always be.

 

[us7070]

i'm not sure why you guys think some sort of investigative piece was coming...

he never promised such a thing

as far as i can tell all he ever said would be published was a single individual's account of the incident

has there ever been that kind of investigative report of an accident done by clean? i might be forgetting, but i don't remember anything

 

[DDW]

Commercial pilot here: Absent Doppler radar, which I have never seen on a boat or a low/medium end airplane, 30 knots and 90 knots could look about the same on radar.

If you have Sirius/XM weather on your chartplotter, you have a nice on-board doppler radar display, updated real time. It shows storm cells intensity, direction, velocity, and real time lightening strikes. It works fine 200 miles off the Carolinas. I used it to attempt to dodge lightening infested squalls last year. Pretty hard on any boat to dodge them, but you can at least move the right direction and you know they are coming and about what to expect. It also overlays grib predictions at the cost of one button push.

The unofficial 24-hr record on a GB is +/-420 miles. Our best is +/-360. Our average is probably 220 though.

223 a day is what Phaedo averaged in the 2011 Arc. About the same as the big racing monohulls. Nearest racer-cruiser monohull was an X-55 at 185 miles/day (about half of that difference expected due to waterline length difference). I bring this up to further reinforce my point that even "fast" boats can't dodge weather any better than other boats - the differences just aren't that great.

I got a Commander's weather forecast for my trip south last year. They just rehashed what NOAA will give you for free, all of which was quite inaccurate 48 hours out. I did it because everybody on the dock said I should, a little reverently I thought. The appeal seems to be that an "authority" blessed your departure. Or if you are too lazy to study the GRIBs. Just my opinion based on one use, but I have heard a few others express the same opinion.

 

[6924]

Clean,

You either are misguided or fibbing about The same IP address. I don't have The slightest Idea who Animal Kingdom is.

 

[Guvacine]

"Micro burst" has become the sailing version of "the dog ate my homework".

 

[Moonduster]

Hey fuck face,

I lost one boat. I disabled the EPIRBs (both of them) before leaving it on the beach. There was no mayday. There were three e-mails including one to the USCG informing them of the loss/abandonment and to be sure the authorities knew there was no danger to any crew.

That there was no investigation has nothing to do with me - I'd have been happy to participate. But there was no reason for an investigation as there was no involvement of any public resources at any time in any way. I know the difference between these situations is hard for you to follow - but please do try.

In both situations, risks were taken and loss occurred. In my situation, I took the necessary steps to ensure no substantive danger to those involved would occur. In fact, I sacrificed the boat to ensure that the outcome could not involve injury or death. In the Rainmaker situation, no such steps were taken. And then, when things became a little awkward, those involved elected to draw public resources and public monies into the situation of their own making, adding to the potential for injury and/or death - willfully and recklessly.

Then, in the aftermath, I offered full disclosure and entertained extensive dialog whereas those involved in the Rainmaker incident first chose to beseech the public for prayers, then spurted out a few random, inconsistent, undefended blurbs. And your excuse for an interview is such a whitewash it's laughable - Rodney Dangerfield interviews Captain Ron. It was all chill, man ... I can't wait to read about the awesomeness of the helicopter ride.

Your vitriol and hyperbole don't change the facts. What is clear, is if I'd been a advertiser you'd be sucking my cock rather than making things up. You really are a pathetic excuse of a human being and getting worse with nearly every passing day.

Don't believe me? How about you issue an apology or at least a correction for the inane misstatements (or outright lies) in post 901, above?

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I was talking about radar on the boat, not XM radar

The XM system might work 200 miles out, but the data will be kind of sparse 200 miles from the radar antennas. If you can even get weather returns 200 miles away, the lowest altitude they could see would be about 25,000 feet. Another issue is the time lag. XM radar feeds are delayed, great for avoiding general areas - crap for avoiding one cell. More than one airplane has crashed trying to go "between the storms" on the XM.

Commercial pilot here: Absent Doppler radar, which I have never seen on a boat or a low/medium end airplane, 30 knots and 90 knots could look about the same on radar.

If you have Sirius/XM weather on your chartplotter, you have a nice on-board doppler radar display, updated real time. It shows storm cells intensity, direction, velocity, and real time lightening strikes. It works fine 200 miles off the Carolinas. I used it to attempt to dodge lightening infested squalls last year. Pretty hard on any boat to dodge them, but you can at least move the right direction and you know they are coming and about what to expect. It also overlays grib predictions at the cost of one button push.

The unofficial 24-hr record on a GB is +/-420 miles. Our best is +/-360. Our average is probably 220 though.

223 a day is what Phaedo averaged in the 2011 Arc. About the same as the big racing monohulls. Nearest racer-cruiser monohull was an X-55 at 185 miles/day (about half of that difference expected due to waterline length difference). I bring this up to further reinforce my point that even "fast" boats can't dodge weather any better than other boats - the differences just aren't that great.

I got a Commander's weather forecast for my trip south last year. They just rehashed what NOAA will give you for free, all of which was quite inaccurate 48 hours out. I did it because everybody on the dock said I should, a little reverently I thought. The appeal seems to be that an "authority" blessed your departure. Or if you are too lazy to study the GRIBs. Just my opinion based on one use, but I have heard a few others express the same opinion.

 

[billy backstay]

Hey fuck face,

I lost one boat. I disabled the EPIRBs (both of them) before leaving it on the beach. There was no mayday. There were three e-mails including one to the USCG informing them of the loss/abandonment and to be sure the authorities knew there was no danger to any crew.

That there was no investigation has nothing to do with me - I'd have been happy to participate. But there was no reason for an investigation as there was no involvement of any public resources at any time in any way. I know the difference between these situations is hard for you to follow - but please do try.

In both situations, risks were taken and loss occurred. In my situation, I took the necessary steps to ensure no substantive danger to those involved would occur. In fact, I sacrificed the boat to ensure that the outcome could not involve injury or death. In the Rainmaker situation, no such steps were taken. And then, when things became a little awkward, those involved elected to draw public resources and public monies into the situation of their own making, adding to the potential for injury and/or death - willfully and recklessly.

Then, in the aftermath, I offered full disclosure and entertained extensive dialog whereas those involved in the Rainmaker incident first chose to beseech the public for prayers, then spurted out a few random, inconsistent, undefended blurbs. And your excuse for an interview is such a whitewash it's laughable - Rodney Dangerfield interviews Captain Ron. It was all chill, man ... I can't wait to read about the awesomeness of the helicopter ride.

Your vitriol and hyperbole don't change the facts. What is clear, is if I'd been a advertiser you'd be sucking my cock rather than making things up. You really are a pathetic excuse of a human being and getting worse with nearly every passing day.

Don't believe me? How about you issue an apology or at least a correction for the inane misstatements (or outright lies) in post 901, above?

Your hate and bile is only lining Cleans and Scooters pockets Moonduster; I hope you do realize that little factoid??!!

The more the shit stirrers and blood-thirsty real, imagined and armchair sailor sharks roil the waters, the more clicks that can Scooter show to the advertisers. Be careful what you wish for, matey!

Clean, thanks for an excellent write-up; looking forward to the rest....

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Hey fuck face,

I lost one boat. I disabled the EPIRBs (both of them) before leaving it on the beach. There was no mayday. There were three e-mails including one to the USCG informing them of the loss/abandonment and to be sure the authorities knew there was no danger to any crew.

That there was no investigation has nothing to do with me - I'd have been happy to participate. But there was no reason for an investigation as there was no involvement of any public resources at any time in any way. I know the difference between these situations is hard for you to follow - but please do try.

In both situations, risks were taken and loss occurred. In my situation, I took the necessary steps to ensure no substantive danger to those involved would occur. In fact, I sacrificed the boat to ensure that the outcome could not involve injury or death. In the Rainmaker situation, no such steps were taken. And then, when things became a little awkward, those involved elected to draw public resources and public monies into the situation of their own making, adding to the potential for injury and/or death - willfully and recklessly.

Then, in the aftermath, I offered full disclosure and entertained extensive dialog whereas those involved in the Rainmaker incident first chose to beseech the public for prayers, then spurted out a few random, inconsistent, undefended blurbs. And your excuse for an interview is such a whitewash it's laughable - Rodney Dangerfield interviews Captain Ron. It was all chill, man ... I can't wait to read about the awesomeness of the helicopter ride.

Your vitriol and hyperbole don't change the facts. What is clear, is if I'd been a advertiser you'd be sucking my cock rather than making things up. You really are a pathetic excuse of a human being and getting worse with nearly every passing day.

Don't believe me? How about you issue an apology or at least a correction for the inane misstatements (or outright lies) in post 901, above?

Corrected, and have an email into Lat38 to try to find the missing story.

apology? Sorry you are such a decrepit old cock, but glad you keep clicking

 

[MR.CLEAN]

That there was no investigation has nothing to do with me - I'd have been happy to participate. But there was no reason for an investigation as there was no involvement of any public resources at any time in any way. I know the difference between these situations is hard for you to follow - but please do try.

So you left tons of toxic lead on a beach somewhere, but there was no involvement of the public? Are you fucking serious right now? What about the fuel, oil, paint, and everything else you leaked into the water?

WHERE'S THE INVESTIGATION?

The thing you seem to willfully ignore here is the fact that your old shitbox wasn't insured when you guaranteed her death by sticking her square in the path of a hurricane, so no one gave a shit what you said afterwards.

When a company is paying out millions of dollars, it doesn't work that way.

Meanwhile, we're all holding our breath for the great investigative yachting journalism that has 'the real story' on Rainmaker. Which do you think will be the source of that great writing that you are obviously sure is coming. Will it be Sailing World or Cruising World? Herb McCormick or Kimball Livingstone? Which bastion of deep-digging reportage will show us all the way? I am waiting with bated breath...or maybe not.

15 years ago, none of us would even know that a boat had been lost...now you know the events in detail, but you still whine like my grandmother when her coffee is cold.

 

[wdgi]

"Ive sailed about 30,000 NM on Gunboats in winds up to 65knots"

(1) honest/true winds up to 65kts are extremely rare offshore (except in hurricanes). You usually have to have F*&Ked up pretty badly to see that. In our time (rather more than this skipper's), we only saw low 60's twice and it was my F*&k up both times that got us into it.

(2) it is 2,600nm from the canaries to the Caribbean. And 1,500nm from Hatteras to Caribbean. So, at his age, this skipper had actually done 11 transatlantic equivalents, all on gunboats?

​I will comment that the three things sailors love to and systematically exaggerate are: wind speeds, miles, and passage speed. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

Estar, you're one of the more knowledgeable contributors in these forums. I'll try to vouch for a few of the claims made by him. He's done 4 N/S trips with us as delivery crew, he's skippered or relief skippered 5 different GB's, captained one trans-Atlantic, and has done N/S deliveries on at least 2 other GBs. The boats are generally busy and well used. We averaged over 10k miles a year, every year. Other than a brief stint on a monohull (we all make mistakes) he's been on GBs since I met him 6 yrs ago. His 30k mile claim is legit, if not conservative.

As for quoted speeds, it's not abnormal to see lots of 20+ but still have low averages. We'll top 20 dozens of times an hour but still only average 10. Nothing odd or exaggerated about that.

As for the 30hr distance, I haven't asked him. If they were at Hatteras at 6am and 200 miles offshore 31 hrs later...then it certainly wasn't a blistering pace. I don't know if they gybed or not. A downwind VMG of 6.5 is pretty atrocious regardless. The only thing I can think is that 200 miles off Hatteras is sorta vague. Either way, it shows he was being appropriately cautious for the conditions. I seem to remember something about anchoring waiting for tide, too.

The unofficial 24-hr record on a GB is +/-420 miles. Our best is +/-360. Our average is probably 220 though.

As for wind claims, remember that you're an owner operator. There are MANY times we had to leave the dock in conditions that you would've sat out. Nevis to St. Barths (upwind) in 30 gusting to 50. Mykonos to ??? gusting to 70+. If it was my boat and my family I would've hung out and waited. But that's not what we are paid to do. We are paid to do what's asked of us. We explain the risks, the downsides, tell the boss that the kids and wife will hate Dad for making them sail. But at the end of the day you do what you're told and do the best you can. Despite all of what I just said...I wouldn't describe 20-30 gusting to 40, downwind, as a forecast that I would want to sit out. If you want to cross oceans you have to be willing to face 30 knots. That's not crazy. If you refuse to leave the dock if 20-30 is forecasted you'll never make it in this industry. That's not "Bounty" territory. That's another day in the NE Caribbean. That's a mellow day in the Aegean. That's 1/2 the time in the Med Sept-Nov.

Well written Soma.

 

[Boo-Yah]

Thanks for laying out some of the details for the fateful voyage..

"I conducted a safety meeting with all crew in the salon. Covering where all fire extinguishers were, safety gear location, medical, and duties in case of emergency, along with our planned route and weather conditions."

With a crew of three highly skilled professionals with more than amble time in the type of boat, deep preparation for the trip and Two (2) guests. The only conclusion anyone could reach at this point is somehow a hidden design or build flaw in the Gunboat must have left the crew, who can do no wrong, in peril along with their Two (2) healthy male guests... unless of course other material facts are withheld at this time?

Gunboat unsinkable unless thunderstorm or squall conditions are experienced. Starting to sound like a Kiwi 35....

 

[estarzinger]

"Ive sailed about 30,000 NM on Gunboats in winds up to 65knots"

(1) honest/true winds up to 65kts are extremely rare offshore (except in hurricanes). You usually have to have F*&Ked up pretty badly to see that. In our time (rather more than this skipper's), we only saw low 60's twice and it was my F*&k up both times that got us into it.

(2) it is 2,600nm from the canaries to the Caribbean. And 1,500nm from Hatteras to Caribbean. So, at his age, this skipper had actually done 11 transatlantic equivalents, all on gunboats?

​I will comment that the three things sailors love to and systematically exaggerate are: wind speeds, miles, and passage speed. And on the front page, I am pretty sure one is exaggerated, strongly suspect another is, and would not be surprised if the third was.

Estar, you're one of the more knowledgeable contributors in these forums. I'll try to vouch for a few of the claims made by him. He's done 4 N/S trips with us as delivery crew, he's skippered or relief skippered 5 different GB's, captained one trans-Atlantic, and has done N/S deliveries on at least 2 other GBs. The boats are generally busy and well used. We averaged over 10k miles a year, every year. Other than a brief stint on a monohull (we all make mistakes) he's been on GBs since I met him 6 yrs ago. His 30k mile claim is legit, if not conservative.

As for quoted speeds, it's not abnormal to see lots of 20+ but still have low averages. We'll top 20 dozens of times an hour but still only average 10. Nothing odd or exaggerated about that.

As for the 30hr distance, I haven't asked him. If they were at Hatteras at 6am and 200 miles offshore 31 hrs later...then it certainly wasn't a blistering pace. I don't know if they gybed or not. A downwind VMG of 6.5 is pretty atrocious regardless. The only thing I can think is that 200 miles off Hatteras is sorta vague. Either way, it shows he was being appropriately cautious for the conditions. I seem to remember something about anchoring waiting for tide, too.

The unofficial 24-hr record on a GB is +/-420 miles. Our best is +/-360. Our average is probably 220 though.

As for wind claims, remember that you're an owner operator. There are MANY times we had to leave the dock in conditions that you would've sat out. Nevis to St. Barths (upwind) in 30 gusting to 50. Mykonos to ??? gusting to 70+. If it was my boat and my family I would've hung out and waited. But that's not what we are paid to do. We are paid to do what's asked of us. We explain the risks, the downsides, tell the boss that the kids and wife will hate Dad for making them sail. But at the end of the day you do what you're told and do the best you can. Despite all of what I just said...I wouldn't describe 20-30 gusting to 40, downwind, as a forecast that I would want to sit out. If you want to cross oceans you have to be willing to face 30 knots. That's not crazy. If you refuse to leave the dock if 20-30 is forecasted you'll never make it in this industry. That's not "Bounty" territory. That's another day in the NE Caribbean. That's a mellow day in the Aegean. That's 1/2 the time in the Med Sept-Nov.

Well written Soma.

Yes, I agree with everything Soma says here. . . . . however, (1) I still don't think the attitude of the piece is that of a proper honest learning seaman, and (2) I still wonder/would like to understand about why the boat was slow (owner comfort, safety or design? or all three), and (3) I still wonder about the structural analysis of the windows for a winter north Atlantic passage.

Yes, 30 kts downwind is typically very nice and I am sure wonderful on a GB . . . but near the gulf stream, even on a delivery with an owner with a schedule, I am reluctant with an honest gale (35-40 sustain) forecast, and this one was a complex system. You know the wave steepness is very different there, even some distance from the north wall you can/will get strong eddies that pile up the water into walls. I have wondered if they thought they would be averaging rather higher and be much further along . . . but the front page piece does not really say (if anything it sort of suggests they were on the expected pace - which if so, with 55' of waterline, would not make the design so 'disruptive')

Yes, as 'mom and pop' cruisers we try to pick weather windows to avoid gales. But we spent 3 years around the horn, and have done some long passages (59 days for one in the southern ocean) and we have seen some bad weather, and 65kts is very very rare and we have never seen 70 (except in shore effect wiliwaws). Edit: Yes, of course, it happens. We have some kiwi friends with video from a tasman crossing showing 80 on their kt meter, in a front forecast to only have 30. But in rather more miles than 30k we have never seen it (including two tasmans)

Once out there, I think I would have wanted the main all the way down, running just the jib, and roll it up (most or all) thru the darkest squalls (motor on if necessary). I know crews on the bigger GB's who did that, and thought it was the only seaman like way to handle the uncertainty of big squalls with such a boat. Perhaps this rig was not structurally designed to run with just a jib - but if so, that's a flaw that should be fixed. The main is just too hard/too slow to pack away.

I can understand why a delivery skipper might not say this . . . .but at this time of year shipping the boat down there might have been more prudent, with less damage/wear to the boat even in a 'good' passage. Shipping cost can't have been an issue for this owner. If the owner did it 'for the adventure', assuming the pro crew would 'carry him', then that's like being carried up Everest and there is a 3.5% fatality rate on that.

 

[Ed Lada]

Thanks for laying out some of the details for the fateful voyage..

"I conducted a safety meeting with all crew in the salon. Covering where all fire extinguishers were, safety gear location, medical, and duties in case of emergency, along with our planned route and weather conditions."

With a crew of three highly skilled professionals with more than amble time in the type of boat, deep preparation for the trip and Two (2) guests. The only conclusion anyone could reach at this point is somehow a hidden design or build flaw in the Gunboat must have left the crew, who can do no wrong, in peril along with their Two (2) healthy male guests... unless of course other material facts are withheld at this time?

Gunboat unsinkable unless thunderstorm or squall conditions are experienced. Starting to sound like a Kiwi 35....

Golly, sometimes shit happens in spite of the best preparation sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. It appears to me there are a bunch of haters here that are gonna hate no matter what. Maybe ya'll should just throw another log on the fire, or if you are in a warmer climate go out on the patio and have a nice big steaming (or icy) cup of FUCK OFF.

 

[billy backstay]

ESTAR wrote: "(1) I still don't think the attitude of the piece is that of a proper honest learning seaman,"

This is just the prologue or chapter one. Certainly not complete enough yet to make that comment, IMHO...

Thanks for laying out some of the details for the fateful voyage..

"I conducted a safety meeting with all crew in the salon. Covering where all fire extinguishers were, safety gear location, medical, and duties in case of emergency, along with our planned route and weather conditions."

With a crew of three highly skilled professionals with more than amble time in the type of boat, deep preparation for the trip and Two (2) guests. The only conclusion anyone could reach at this point is somehow a hidden design or build flaw in the Gunboat must have left the crew, who can do no wrong, in peril along with their Two (2) healthy male guests... unless of course other material facts are withheld at this time?

Gunboat unsinkable unless thunderstorm or squall conditions are experienced. Starting to sound like a Kiwi 35....

Golly, sometimes shit happens in spite of the best preparation sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. It appears to me there are a bunch of haters here that are gonna hate no matter what. Maybe ya'll should just throw another log on the fire, or if you are in a warmer climate go out on the patio and have a nice big steaming (or icy) cup of FUCK OFF.

THIS!!

EDIT- WHAT'S THE COST TO TRUCK A BOAT THAT'S 20 FEET WIDE?