RAINMAKER DISMASTED OFF HATTERAS IN GALE
- Thread starter DryArmour
- Start date
mcsailor0303
Anarchist
So is RainmakerII going to be a MOD70?
This:
"Jon told me it was maybe 5-7 seconds between when the gust hit to when the rig was on the deck."
On a light day a mast might fall slowly, but in 260 knots or whatever we're up to now in this microburst, moving at speeds between 18-20 but sometimes 7-10 (but averaging 6), it would come down extremely quickly. So, it survived for some seconds when the gust (sorry, microburst) hit. That seems to be the logical inference.
Thus: it wasn't such a sudden shock loading. It was a steadier wind load on the rig that will have produced forces that will have been calculated in the design process. And it raises the same, same, same question that Clean won't ask and GB won't answer: why didn't the boat start to fly a hull/flip with some seconds of sustained load before the mast broke?
I'm guessing that there are some really interesting questions about the design process around the mast, and the evolution of the design during construction. What was the original lightship weight of the design, compared to the 'as built' design. Was it always meant to be a 12.5T boat? Because it looked to me like it was sitting too low for Nigel Irens' style from the very start.
Oh, and re the Bounty comparison: that boat wasn't fit to head out into the weather for reasons that should have been visible to an experienced skipper. Hubris. The questions around the GB55 design were in exactly the same category weren't they? I mean, I could see them in the promo footage: Acres of vulnerable glass with no shutters; very exposed stern; vulnerable engine access (and gee, they had trouble starting one engine, which becomes scary with those hatches); very low bridge deck clearance; squatting at speed.
This isn't 20/20 hindsight. This is catamaran design 101. Boat design 101. Bridgedeck clearance. Down flooding. Engine access. Glass strength. Glass areas. Shutters. Not so important in Soma's f40. Really important if you are telling people it's a blue water cruising boat. These questions weren't asked by GB's choirboys, and rich gullible people got wet as a result. They still aren't being asked by SA, and most people think Clean is a dick as a result.
So I suspect the skipper is really good at his job, and if the boat was falling apart and scary, he probably made the right call. Whether he worried about the sturdiness of the design beforehand, I bet he has some things to say about it now, if he could.
So as has been clear from the start, this is a design issue.
And it's a GB marketing issue.
And it's a journalism issue.
And it's a "don't trust boat reviews and awards" issue.
And it's a "buy an Outremer" issue.
PJ, checking in?
"Jon told me it was maybe 5-7 seconds between when the gust hit to when the rig was on the deck."
On a light day a mast might fall slowly, but in 260 knots or whatever we're up to now in this microburst, moving at speeds between 18-20 but sometimes 7-10 (but averaging 6), it would come down extremely quickly. So, it survived for some seconds when the gust (sorry, microburst) hit. That seems to be the logical inference.
Thus: it wasn't such a sudden shock loading. It was a steadier wind load on the rig that will have produced forces that will have been calculated in the design process. And it raises the same, same, same question that Clean won't ask and GB won't answer: why didn't the boat start to fly a hull/flip with some seconds of sustained load before the mast broke?
I'm guessing that there are some really interesting questions about the design process around the mast, and the evolution of the design during construction. What was the original lightship weight of the design, compared to the 'as built' design. Was it always meant to be a 12.5T boat? Because it looked to me like it was sitting too low for Nigel Irens' style from the very start.
Oh, and re the Bounty comparison: that boat wasn't fit to head out into the weather for reasons that should have been visible to an experienced skipper. Hubris. The questions around the GB55 design were in exactly the same category weren't they? I mean, I could see them in the promo footage: Acres of vulnerable glass with no shutters; very exposed stern; vulnerable engine access (and gee, they had trouble starting one engine, which becomes scary with those hatches); very low bridge deck clearance; squatting at speed.
This isn't 20/20 hindsight. This is catamaran design 101. Boat design 101. Bridgedeck clearance. Down flooding. Engine access. Glass strength. Glass areas. Shutters. Not so important in Soma's f40. Really important if you are telling people it's a blue water cruising boat. These questions weren't asked by GB's choirboys, and rich gullible people got wet as a result. They still aren't being asked by SA, and most people think Clean is a dick as a result.
So I suspect the skipper is really good at his job, and if the boat was falling apart and scary, he probably made the right call. Whether he worried about the sturdiness of the design beforehand, I bet he has some things to say about it now, if he could.
So as has been clear from the start, this is a design issue.
And it's a GB marketing issue.
And it's a journalism issue.
And it's a "don't trust boat reviews and awards" issue.
And it's a "buy an Outremer" issue.
PJ, checking in?
MR.CLEAN
Moderator
- Moderator
- #1,065
Right, I believe with 8 crew, very well qualified. And it's not that I disagree with your point about dismasting, but here's the rub: This is only the second Gunboat in 15 years and several million miles to lose a rig, so you can understand that they didn't design the boat specifically to handle it.
Are there boats that are designed to put in 250 mile days in comfort and yet be easily self-rescued after dismasting in 15 foot waves by a mom, two kids, and the dog? Maybe that cool alloy Dashew ketch, but I'm told by those in the know that their daily run estimates were a tad bit hyperbolic...
MR.CLEAN
Moderator
- Moderator
- #1,067
Would it surprise anyone if I looked up bigmarv's IP address and found it coming from the same general neighborhood where the Outremer Cats dealer for Brisbane is located?
Almost unbelievable that there are still people using the 'j' word.
Almost unbelievable that there are still people using the 'j' word.
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It appears that Rkoch also has little or no experience with real emergencies and doesn't realize how quickly things can go from bad to worse. In the middle of an emergency there is no shame in getting out while the getting is good and nobody is dead yet. The first thing a first responder does is check that the scene is secure, only a fool rushes impulsively in to a burning building or dives in to unknown waters. A major part of bravery is knowing when to stop being a hero. If you want to push beyond that point and it is only your life, go for it.
It would surprise me unless the wifi I'm borrowing in a completely different country is somehow routed via Brisbane. Don't worry Clean, I'm not in the industry at all, I was just an observer who was bored and annoyed by the spin and noticed you picked and chose which questions you answer, and if there were none you wanted to answer, went for silence or abuse.
Maybe it is your questions Marv, I see you are asking "innocent" questions over in CA too. Yeah, you are just a simple curious
surfsailor
Super Anarchist
To me, the salient issues are what happened immediately AFTER the mast came down. Let's face it, masts go over the side, I've been onboard for one dismasting, and witnessed another one from a close enough vantage point that we thought we might get hit by the Windex.
I have no doubt the GB guys are looking at this - my concerns would be:
1) The butt of the mast coming loose
2) The broken glass
3) The fact that impact on the giant pilothouse somehow compromised one of the hatches
4) Engine access
5) The simple fact that clearing a mast, boom and sails/rigging from an ultrawide platform like a multi hull is a completely different kettle of fish from just dumping the thing over the side on a lead slug - look at the picture of the 66 in the transpac, and imagine if the wind was 40 plus with rough seas instead of 16 kts and smooth.
The first 4 items can easily be addressed by GB, but the 5th might require some clever design work - perhaps a raised mastbase like the one on Rocket Science:
http://www.biekerboats.com/Bieker_Boats/Riptide_55.html
I have no doubt the GB guys are looking at this - my concerns would be:
1) The butt of the mast coming loose
2) The broken glass
3) The fact that impact on the giant pilothouse somehow compromised one of the hatches
4) Engine access
5) The simple fact that clearing a mast, boom and sails/rigging from an ultrawide platform like a multi hull is a completely different kettle of fish from just dumping the thing over the side on a lead slug - look at the picture of the 66 in the transpac, and imagine if the wind was 40 plus with rough seas instead of 16 kts and smooth.
The first 4 items can easily be addressed by GB, but the 5th might require some clever design work - perhaps a raised mastbase like the one on Rocket Science:
http://www.biekerboats.com/Bieker_Boats/Riptide_55.html
Yeah, or troll is fine too. I'd have asked it only once if he'd answered. I'm becoming bored though, so probably won't ask them again.
Nope, I dont. Only mundane stuff like dropped rigs, broken rudders, broken DBs tearing the trunk out, ring frames bulkheads and hull/deck joints failing, 80 kn weather bombs in a 30'er in the Gulfstream. Always got home. Never anything life-threatening like a panicked catatonic RO wanting his mommy, although I did have to ignore an owner shooting off flares right and left when the deck started coming off an Ericson 23 in a tough overnight MORC race way back. We kept racing and won.
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Veeger
Super Anarchist
In an emergency, the Captain's responsibility is the safety of the people on board. Things had badly turned to shit. No sailing vessel does well once the primary propulsion lands in a heap. A seaworthy vessel then becomes unseaworthy, although not all do. I seem to remember a story about Tsu Hang or whatever the name was of a conventional, seaworthy craft in tough waters that got slapped down by conditions while going around Cape Horn. Opened up the deck by tearing off part of the deckhouse and this wasn't any large glass expanse. Stuff happens out there. We all know it (theoretically) but you cannot even design for infallibility once one or more parts fail -- unless you have a round sphere and even then-- (well, THAT didn't work out too well either)
The greater liability comes when you DON'T take immediate and decisive action to protect lives. As we used to say in the fire department, Shit can be replaced, lives can't. Also, as a former ship's master, I can tell you that it's considered negligence when you don't use all means at your disposal. (for instance, not using radar if it's on board is a no-no). Calling for help and getting people off is, was and will be the first priority. If they were 1200 miles offshore, then a helo wouldn't be an option and other measures would be a priority.
Also, utilizing a commercial ship is a LAST choice. Many, no, MOST ship masters are poorly trained for that type of ship handling and/or have very little or no experience for that kind of maneuvering. A steel ship is the equivalent of a rock ledge when against a carbon, fiberglass and epoxy ya-chit. Attempting a boarding when the relative heights are changing by 10, 15 or 20' or more every 15-30 seconds is nuts. I know because I've done that professionally as a ship's pilot in (usually) less than 10' differential situations. No way is it reasonable to expect scared, tired, wet inexperienced folks do it.
Personally, I wouldn't have been out there in January but it could have just as well been June with the same circumstances.... (also, having been in that area both times of the year....)
The greater liability comes when you DON'T take immediate and decisive action to protect lives. As we used to say in the fire department, Shit can be replaced, lives can't. Also, as a former ship's master, I can tell you that it's considered negligence when you don't use all means at your disposal. (for instance, not using radar if it's on board is a no-no). Calling for help and getting people off is, was and will be the first priority. If they were 1200 miles offshore, then a helo wouldn't be an option and other measures would be a priority.
Also, utilizing a commercial ship is a LAST choice. Many, no, MOST ship masters are poorly trained for that type of ship handling and/or have very little or no experience for that kind of maneuvering. A steel ship is the equivalent of a rock ledge when against a carbon, fiberglass and epoxy ya-chit. Attempting a boarding when the relative heights are changing by 10, 15 or 20' or more every 15-30 seconds is nuts. I know because I've done that professionally as a ship's pilot in (usually) less than 10' differential situations. No way is it reasonable to expect scared, tired, wet inexperienced folks do it.
Personally, I wouldn't have been out there in January but it could have just as well been June with the same circumstances.... (also, having been in that area both times of the year....)
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MR.CLEAN
Moderator
- Moderator
- #1,075
I generally answer questions that are posed by people I know and respect, or that are particularly good questions. Or really stupid ones.
I typically avoid questions from n00bs, because there just aren't that many real n00bs anymore. One thing you can bank on in SA is that n00bs who join during a contentious argument are almost always socks, which almost always means an agenda. It might be because you're a competitor, because you have a problem with multihulls, or because you hate Gunboats for some reason, I don't know, but that's what the odds say you are.
For instance I got a scathing e-mail the other day from someone about the RM, and he turned out to be a former GB employee who'd been let go, and he was posting as a sock. very common, and apologies if I've got you wrong.
I did look up the IP address, and can confirm that you are not posting from Oz...but not too far away...
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adrumm
Member
What's done is done. The boat broke and the crew were rescued.......end of story. Not really, it's probably just getting rolling. Thank god for all the Yachting and safety experts on SA, as the attorney's representing the client and his insurance company will be looking for some guidance. Without question, this will go on for quite sometime. Insurance companies don't just write off 2.5M dollar yachts. Someones going down for this and it's not going to be the guy who wrote all the checks. The real finger pointing is just about to begin. Regardless of the boat being found or not, the shit's gonna hit the fan real soon......hell it's already in route.
In that case I would suggest your problem is failing to properly consider the weather and consistently setting out in less than seaworthy boats. Maybe you should consider a different hobby, eh? What is that old saying, god protects fools and babies? And I don't think you are a baby anymore.
surfsailor
Super Anarchist
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eastern motors
Anarchist
- 782
- 177
So none of the electronics are waterproof and are only protected by glass that shatters?
