RAINMAKER DISMASTED OFF HATTERAS IN GALE

[MR.CLEAN]

To me, the salient issues are what happened immediately AFTER the mast came down. Let's face it, masts go over the side, I've been onboard for one dismasting, and witnessed another one from a close enough vantage point that we thought we might get hit by the Windex.

I have no doubt the GB guys are looking at this - my concerns would be:

1) The butt of the mast coming loose

2) The broken glass

3) The fact that impact on the giant pilothouse somehow compromised one of the hatches

4) Engine access

5) The simple fact that clearing a mast, boom and sails/rigging from an ultrawide platform like a multi hull is a completely different kettle of fish from just dumping the thing over the side on a lead slug - look at the picture of the 66 in the transpac, and imagine if the wind was 40 plus with rough seas instead of 16 kts and smooth.

The first 4 items can easily be addressed by GB, but the 5th might require some clever design work - perhaps a raised mastbase like the one on Rocket Science:

http://www.biekerboats.com/Bieker_Boats/Riptide_55.html

Keep in mind that dismastings have torn holes in IMOCA and Class 40 cabin tops as well, and they're designed for some pretty extensive 'deliveries' without a very large crew...

 

[RKoch]

Nope, I dont. Only mundane stuff like dropped rigs, broken rudders, broken DBs tearing the trunk out, ring frames bulkheads and hull/deck joints failing, 80 kn weather bombs in a 30'er in the Gulfstream. Always got home. Never anything life-threatening like a panicked catatonic RO wanting his mommy.

You must be one hell of a horrible seaman to have allowed your boats to be so shockingly badly prepared before setting off, and massively lucky to have made it to shore.

Obviously you weren't around in the IOR days. Shit came apart, regularly. You raced until it was no longer possible, then you made your way into port. There was no eject button to push as soon as things became a bit difficult.

 

[us7070]

It appears that RKoch hasn't had much emergency offshore training. Shocker.

Surprised by this. Yachtmaster training from my recollection instructs a skipper to press the button as soon as you think you might be in shit. Pan Pan for ankle deep and mayday for deep shit. Part of the MOB procedure, even in tame conditions is to press the fricken button. You can always call back later and say you got it under control. Arguably the 1st call might have been a PAN PAN situation, but I'm not going to second guess that call. But by my training they did the right thing by calling the coasties promptly.

It appears that Rkoch also has little or no experience with real emergencies and doesn't realize how quickly things can go from bad to worse. In the middle of an emergency there is no shame in getting out while the getting is good and nobody is dead yet. The first thing a first responder does is check that the scene is secure, only a fool rushes impulsively in to a burning building or dives in to unknown waters. A major part of bravery is knowing when to stop being a hero. If you want to push beyond that point and it is only your life, go for it.

What's done is done. The boat broke and the crew were rescued.......end of story. Not really, it's probably just getting rolling. Thank god for all the Yachting and safety experts on SA, as the attorney's representing the client and his insurance company will be looking for some guidance. Without question, this will go on for quite sometime. Insurance companies don't just write off 2.5M dollar yachts. Someones going down for this and it's not going to be the guy who wrote all the checks. The real finger pointing is just about to begin. Regardless of the boat being found or not, the shit's gonna hit the fan real soon......hell it's already in route.

you might be right...

but writing checks like this is exactly the business insurance companies are in

my guess is they write the check without much discussion.., and in the future they think very hard before insuring a similar boat.

i've heard of people calling the insurance company before they get off the boat.., doesn't sound like that's what happened here though...

 

[Ed Lada]

Would it surprise anyone if I looked up bigmarv's IP address and found it coming from the same general neighborhood where the Outremer Cats dealer for Brisbane is located?

It would surprise me unless the wifi I'm borrowing in a completely different country is somehow routed via Brisbane. Don't worry Clean, I'm not in the industry at all, I was just an observer who was bored and annoyed by the spin and noticed you picked and chose which questions you answer, and if there were none you wanted to answer, went for silence or abuse.

Maybe it is your questions Marv, I see you are asking "innocent" questions over in CA too. Yeah, you are just a simple curious troll guy, right?

Yeah, or troll is fine too. I'd have asked it only once if he'd answered. I'm becoming bored though, so probably won't ask them again.

Problem is Marv, with just a handful of posts you have managed to antagonize one of the editors of this site and a well known and very successful designer with many boats to his credit. Not a very good start is it?

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Nope, I dont. Only mundane stuff like dropped rigs, broken rudders, broken DBs tearing the trunk out, ring frames bulkheads and hull/deck joints failing, 80 kn weather bombs in a 30'er in the Gulfstream. Always got home. Never anything life-threatening like a panicked catatonic RO wanting his mommy.

You must be one hell of a horrible seaman to have allowed your boats to be so shockingly badly prepared before setting off, and massively lucky to have made it to shore.

Obviously you weren't around in the IOR days. Shit came apart, regularly. You raced until it was no longer possible, then you made your way into port. There was no eject button to push as soon as things became a bit difficult.

"I walked uphill, both ways, through the snow, barefoot..."

sounds like some 'good old days-itis' to me. I'm guessing you don't get to do much bluewater sailing anymore, have you missed some of the developments of the past few decades?

 

[Trickypig]

SA: So you’re ready to abandon if you need to – any thoughts of self-rescue at this point?

CB: Of course – no one wants to abandon their boat.

… they have 2 cargo ships, a helo and a CG130 on the way.

When does the CG deem an emergency situation is under their control?

Is activating an EPIRB equivalent to a mayday call?

 

[us7070]

So none of the electronics are waterproof and are only protected by glass that shatters?

it might have been that the whole electrical system went down.., in which case it won't help if individual components are waterproof

in any case, electronics aren't really mission critical

i've done deliveries where electronics went down - not really that big a deal

hand held GPS, VHF and satphone all work on batteries

 

[surfsailor]

To me, the salient issues are what happened immediately AFTER the mast came down. Let's face it, masts go over the side, I've been onboard for one dismasting, and witnessed another one from a close enough vantage point that we thought we might get hit by the Windex.

I have no doubt the GB guys are looking at this - my concerns would be:

1) The butt of the mast coming loose

2) The broken glass

3) The fact that impact on the giant pilothouse somehow compromised one of the hatches

4) Engine access

5) The simple fact that clearing a mast, boom and sails/rigging from an ultrawide platform like a multi hull is a completely different kettle of fish from just dumping the thing over the side on a lead slug - look at the picture of the 66 in the transpac, and imagine if the wind was 40 plus with rough seas instead of 16 kts and smooth.

The first 4 items can easily be addressed by GB, but the 5th might require some clever design work - perhaps a raised mastbase like the one on Rocket Science:

http://www.biekerboats.com/Bieker_Boats/Riptide_55.html

Keep in mind that dismastings have torn holes in IMOCA and Class 40 cabin tops as well, and they're designed for some pretty extensive 'deliveries' without a very large crew...

Yep - and that's actually an interesting comparison, because making a 'cruising' cat perform basically requires using similar construction to an extreme race boat, since multihulls are extremely weight sensitive. And that construction is by it's nature brittle and fragile.

Hence my suggestion that GB might want to consider some out-of-the-box design thinking to increase the odds of the deck/hull surviving a catastrophic rig failure.

 

[Ed Lada]

So none of the electronics are waterproof and are only protected by glass that shatters?

I think that is the single most disturbing think about this whole affair.

 

[davidprobable]

IOR sailors were always the best...........they had to be.

 

[billy backstay]

Blows my mind the bombastic criticism and wild ass speculation based on the information provided!!! On many them, it is quite obvious that the poster has never ever personally been anywhere near an offshore storm with 15 foot waves coupled with big breeze. You guys have no fucking idea how challenging it is just to hang on when you are inside a washing machine, let alone even attempt to fix anything. Many readers have, and most of them are keeping there mouths shut, cause they been there and done that, and lived to sail another day. Don't whistle as you walk by the graveyard, or there by His Grace go you.......(rant off)

 

[RKoch]

Nope, I dont. Only mundane stuff like dropped rigs, broken rudders, broken DBs tearing the trunk out, ring frames bulkheads and hull/deck joints failing, 80 kn weather bombs in a 30'er in the Gulfstream. Always got home. Never anything life-threatening like a panicked catatonic RO wanting his mommy.

You must be one hell of a horrible seaman to have allowed your boats to be so shockingly badly prepared before setting off, and massively lucky to have made it to shore.

Or he raced IOR boats back in the day. Remember the Standfast 40?!

i nearly was on that boat. Asked before race if they needed crew. They were good, and I ended up on a one-tonner with some guys I knew... Warren Luhrs was also on the crew. More exciting (frightening) was '73 Ft Lauderdale race on a 30'er, got caught in an 80kn weather bomb in Gulfstream. An ocean-going tug sank in the storm, crew rescued by a racing boat. The tug's tow, a barge loaded with molasses, was cut loose and was wrecked on Molasses Reef. Weird.

 

[ropetrick]

Today's installment of the story sheds more light than I expected. Bravo.

Only three people to clear the rig is tough. But it was daylight. Pull pins, shoot the standing rigging, cut halyards and wires. Lots of cutting. Don't forget the sails.

The mast looked like it was in three pieces. Throw them away one at a time. It likely was possible.

Engaging the props was a rookie mistake. Sorry, being in a hurry is no excuse.

If both engines had remained operational they "might" have been able to stay aboard.

But with panicked passengers I support the decision to bail, two engines or no engines.

I will never ever understand the attempt to board the freighter.

edit to add. I have cleared a down rig in six foot seas.

 

[adrumm]

It appears that RKoch hasn't had much emergency offshore training. Shocker.

Surprised by this. Yachtmaster training from my recollection instructs a skipper to press the button as soon as you think you might be in shit. Pan Pan for ankle deep and mayday for deep shit. Part of the MOB procedure, even in tame conditions is to press the fricken button. You can always call back later and say you got it under control. Arguably the 1st call might have been a PAN PAN situation, but I'm not going to second guess that call. But by my training they did the right thing by calling the coasties promptly.

It appears that Rkoch also has little or no experience with real emergencies and doesn't realize how quickly things can go from bad to worse. In the middle of an emergency there is no shame in getting out while the getting is good and nobody is dead yet. The first thing a first responder does is check that the scene is secure, only a fool rushes impulsively in to a burning building or dives in to unknown waters. A major part of bravery is knowing when to stop being a hero. If you want to push beyond that point and it is only your life, go for it.

What's done is done. The boat broke and the crew were rescued.......end of story. Not really, it's probably just getting rolling. Thank god for all the Yachting and safety experts on SA, as the attorney's representing the client and his insurance company will be looking for some guidance. Without question, this will go on for quite sometime. Insurance companies don't just write off 2.5M dollar yachts. Someones going down for this and it's not going to be the guy who wrote all the checks. The real finger pointing is just about to begin. Regardless of the boat being found or not, the shit's gonna hit the fan real soon......hell it's already in route.

you might be right...

but writing checks like this is exactly the business insurance companies are in

my guess is they write the check without much discussion.., and in the future they think very hard before insuring a similar boat.

i've heard of people calling the insurance company before they get off the boat.., doesn't sound like that's what happened here though...

Agreed! I just wonder how long it takes for the insurance company to write down the boat. I have heard of cases where they would not close because lack of proof........gotta have a dead body before its a murder.

 

[bigmarv]

Problem is Marv, with just a handful of posts you have managed to antagonize one of the editors of this site and a well known and very successful designer with many boats to his credit. Not a very good start is it?

I agree. It's a bad start, but I shouldn't have started in the first place. My style of questions was obviously rude by SA standards, and Clean's said he won't answer because it's me who asked. I guess if they were bad questions nobody else will ask them, but I've got better things to do than try again so I'll leave you all to it. Cheers.

 

[surfsailor]

Today's installment of the story sheds more light than I expected. Bravo.

Only three people to clear the rig is tough. But it was daylight. Pull pins, shoot the standing rigging, cut halyards and wires. Lots of cutting. Don't forget the sails.

The mast looked like it was in three pieces. Throw them away one at a time. It likely was possible.

Engaging the props was a rookie mistake. Sorry, being in a hurry is no excuse.

If both engines had remained operational they "might" have been able to stay aboard.

But with panicked passengers I support the decision to bail, two engines or no engines.

I will never ever understand the attempt to board the freighter.

I think you ae completely underestimating the extreme difficlty of clearing the rig on that boat, and the seriousness of the damage to the boat that was accumulating while they struggled. I would imagine the ONLY situation where you would consider attempting to board a freighter from a yacht in heavy seas is when the other option is almost certain peril.

 

[Trickypig]

I've had a trawler skipper describe how he had many times cleared his prop by jinking the motor in forward and reverse to get the line straight off the shaft, then unwinding the offending line off the shaft with reverse.

Of course their gearbox ratios are often slower but I'm wondering if any sailors have successfully done this?

 

[RKoch]

IOR sailors were always the best...........they had to be.

Well, the boats were by and large pieces of shit. No weather forecasting except by observation. Navigation by RDF and dead reckoning. Harnesses and life jackets not commonly worn, you learned to hang on tight during numerous spinnaker broaches. No EPIRBs, no one was going to save your ass except you and others on boat. Better sailors? I doubt it. But certainly tough...you had to be. Not to mention the maxi-crews, who had to deal with wire sheets and guys.

 

[longy]

You cannot compare GB 60 (and others) to the 55. Totally different boats & concepts. The safety/miles sailed record of one design does not transfer to a different design. Pheado may have survived better because of weather, stronger laminate sched, more roof protection, completely enclosed salon (which survived enclosable), better design team anything you care to name, doesnt matter. RM is hull #1 of 55's, first to do a lot of miles, first to attempt a long offshore delivery. Her stats stand alone under the GB 55 heading.

How many GB have been splashed from the US build site?

 

[Ed Lada]

Nope, I dont. Only mundane stuff like dropped rigs, broken rudders, broken DBs tearing the trunk out, ring frames bulkheads and hull/deck joints failing, 80 kn weather bombs in a 30'er in the Gulfstream. Always got home. Never anything life-threatening like a panicked catatonic RO wanting his mommy.

You must be one hell of a horrible seaman to have allowed your boats to be so shockingly badly prepared before setting off, and massively lucky to have made it to shore.

Obviously you weren't around in the IOR days. Shit came apart, regularly. You raced until it was no longer possible, then you made your way into port. There was no eject button to push as soon as things became a bit difficult.

So, given that the only people that stretch things more than fisherman are sailors, let me deconstruct your post. All of the awful events you described happened in probably one trip, two at the outside. You were a junior crew member, possibly even the cook/back up grinder. After you got back to shore wearing your last pair of only slightly slightly soiled shorts, the old skipper took you aside and told you, "Don't worry son, it was a little bit of a rough race but you can tell the ladies about it and they will think you are really something." Then he told you, "Remember son, this is IOR, we race until it is no longer possible, then we make our way into port. There is no eject button when things become a bit difficult." You turned these wise words over in your head as you got into the passenger side of the car, brightened up and said "Hi mom!."