Recon diary

Stingray~

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I mostly agree, but I think you are underestimating the modifications to the AM boat. They are running cyclors, have the boomless main, custom fitting mains, custom fit jibs with new controls, all new deck and crew layouts and new control systems. All of which will be perfected and then dropped directly into the new AC75. They are basically testing and training crew in a new boat, not an old AC75. Yes, they have not tested any new foils or hulls yet, but they will have two fully trained crews to do head to head racing in their two AC75's. No teams are doing any hull testing and there has been very limited foils testing so far.
Agreed. That AM are doing things at full scale may also be a good workout for their designers, for their supply lines, and for the larger management process. They are looking really good so far. They will have some super well-optimized systems already ready come the new boat.
 

P Flados

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For AM, there is also some real potential for gain in the crucial low wind conditions.

Last cycle, a big area where they seemed lacking was sail control for low wind tacking, jibing and getting up on foils. If they can make substantial improvements in the techniques, skills and hardware needed to match or beat other teams in this area, it may make a big difference when conditions do not allow continuous foiling.

Both Goody and Slingsby have fought the "marginal foiling conditions battle" in Sail GP. Drawing from their past experience and getting farther up the "learning curve" on an AC 75 has to be valuable.
 

The_Alchemist

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For AM, there is also some real potential for gain in the crucial low wind conditions.

Last cycle, a big area where they seemed lacking was sail control for low wind tacking, jibing and getting up on foils. If they can make substantial improvements in the techniques, skills and hardware needed to match or beat other teams in this area, it may make a big difference when conditions do not allow continuous foiling.

Both Goody and Slingsby have fought the "marginal foiling conditions battle" in Sail GP. Drawing from their past experience and getting farther up the "learning curve" on an AC 75 has to be valuable.
Yes, they looked very good in 6 knots of wind. Significant Improvements over last cup.
 

shebeen

Super Anarchist
For AM, there is also some real potential for gain in the crucial low wind conditions.

Last cycle, a big area where they seemed lacking was sail control for low wind tacking, jibing and getting up on foils. If they can make substantial improvements in the techniques, skills and hardware needed to match or beat other teams in this area, it may make a big difference when conditions do not allow continuous foiling.

Both Goody and Slingsby have fought the "marginal foiling conditions battle" in Sail GP. Drawing from their past experience and getting farther up the "learning curve" on an AC 75 has to be valuable.
Goodie did just 2 SailGP events standing in for Ben, so not sure how much that helps here.
BUT, if they really are logging a lot of sailtime as the Goodsby dual helm then it puts a crack combination together from the start.

both fierce laser competitors on olympic campaigns and moth world champs surely puts them on a par or above the burling/outteridge combo. No one else comes close and Burling got schooled in prestart at AC36 so there's work there to be done too. I know it's a long way out from the actual cup racing in 2024, but this testing/training is a good investment.


They are basically testing and training crew in a new boat, not an old AC75. Yes, they have not tested any new foils or hulls yet, but they will have two fully trained crews to do head to head racing in their two AC75's. No teams are doing any hull testing and there has been very limited foils testing so far.
I could be wrong, but pretty sure you can't sail two boat testing with AC75s. AC40 yes.
 

shebeen

Super Anarchist
I may also be wrong, but I meant to say a while back that i could not find that rule. Has it been deleted somewhere along the line?
you can only have one new one.

1670938956165.png


but you can't match race them.

1670939012374.png
 

enigmatically2

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Thank you @shebeen
So if (hypothetically) you designed an LEQ 12 to have the same weight, sail area, foil size and foil separation as an AC75 (which you could just about do), you could match race those
(yes I know they still wouldn't behave the same because the centre of effort versus centre of resistance etc would be totally different
 

Stingray~

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This by RG rambles on a little and one could take issue with a few of the arguments he makes, but a reasonable summary anyway:


Is this part correct? bold mine

The other advantage of running a legacy AC75 in the 2024 mix is that it can be used to recycle modified parts from the 2021 Cup if they add to the 2024 design program. New parts (wing foils, flaps, cyclist-powered systems etc.) can also be tested on the legacy AC75 and cut over to the race boat as new components and extending full-size testing time.
 

enigmatically2

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It is true, you can test new parts on an old AC75, but they count from your allowance for the new boat (although some modification to legacy parts that were declared in AC36 is also allowed without counting as such, but not much)- see Tech regs 4.3 and 4.5
 

Stingray~

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It is true, you can test new parts on an old AC75, but they count from your allowance for the new boat (although some modification to legacy parts that were declared in AC36 is also allowed without counting as such, but not much)- see Tech regs 4.3 and 4.5
In that case AM's chosen path is looking even smarter.
 

enigmatically2

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In that case AM's chosen path is looking even smarter.
Possibly. There is a big risk. You are then pretty much confined to a small iteration from the last generation, because otherwise your components are likely to fit into the integrated whole of the last gen boats and the new boats.
That maybe all we should expect, but I wonder whether the waves and lower wind speeds will lead to more radical evolution (possibly in respect to aspects we cannot see). As always, time will tell
 

Stingray~

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Possibly. There is a big risk. You are then pretty much confined to a small iteration from the last generation, because otherwise your components are likely to fit into the integrated whole of the last gen boats and the new boats.
That maybe all we should expect, but I wonder whether the waves and lower wind speeds will lead to more radical evolution (possibly in respect to aspects we cannot see). As always, time will tell
Are you allowed to install the new, longer foil arms into a legacy AC75?
 

Mozzy Sails

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Is this part correct? bold mine

The other advantage of running a legacy AC75 in the 2024 mix is that it can be used to recycle modified parts from the 2021 Cup if they add to the 2024 design program. New parts (wing foils, flaps, cyclist-powered systems etc.) can also be tested on the legacy AC75 and cut over to the race boat as new components and extending full-size testing time.
I think that is incorrect for wing foils and flaps because:
1671011849874.png

You could put new masts and foil arms on a AC75, but they would count from the 'new allowance'.

These are basically the components, alongside the hull itself, are what separates a modified legacy boat (or V1.5 as Richard calls them) from a AC75 V2.

It's a good article from Richard though, covering a few bases. Might have been better a 2 or 3 separate pieces.
 
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enigmatically2

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I was thinking a bit more about the jib lead. The separate clew fixings idea that we have seen on AM etcis quite coarse. Given the speed of these boats, the adjustments would be:
more vertically in low wind when off the foil. Almost as soon as you are up on the foils the apparent wind speeds would be such that you want to start twisting off the top, so it would the lead would need to be more horizontal. It is possible that at higher wind speeds you want to twist off even more, but not very much.

So therefore the key aspect to me is the ability to adjust whilst sailing, which of all the designs, only Ineos (possibly) seems to allow.

Given the lighter winds expected, I predict that all of the race boats will have some variant that allows jib sheet angle adjustment whilst sailing
 

Lost in Translation

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Any feedback from you guys about that discussion, on ETNZ's banana foils?

edit: timestamp here

I thought the flap-less suggestion was clever, and it fits with the way some of the smaller foiling boats work. There is some coarse adjustment of the main foil but fine tuning around the course can be done with the rudders only in a typical race on an A-Class now that the foils are very refined.
 

JALhazmat

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What’s the rule for fitting massive gyroscope for stability? One of the seakeeper things?

yes, I know that they are ludicrously heavy which rules them out on that basis alone

But from what I understand, they operate independently from any other control surface and require only a power source to produce stabilising effect so wouldn’t be caught up, providing a secondary/automated source of input into a control system

so rather than shifting your weight back-and-forth, as you do on a fixed foil system like a kite race board, you could turn the system on at the desired height and fix the pitch of the boat where you want to?

I’m well aware that it’s impractical, but it was more to see if there was actually a rule, governing something like that?
 






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