Recon diary

[enigmatically2]

Interesting new rule query. Queries whether LEQ12 arm stock has to be from supplier to spec before modification.

Given how different Ineos arms appear to be are theirs from that source.
Query claims to be from a team asking for their own arms. But seems a bit late for that. Is someone trying to get Ineos arms declared illegal?

Redirecting

www.google.com

 

[Stingray~]

From 'the supplier'? Surely that does not intend to be language about suppliers of LEQ foil arms?

 

[Stingray~]

Is someone trying to get Ineos arms declared illegal?

Would be some fun to watch Ineos start sailing their T6 around without any foil arms, for sure. Maybe they could manually hold those things in the water, drag them around that way instead

Iirc then the LR boat was built by Persico (same supplier that builds the AC75 foil arms) and it's possible that Persico also builds the AC40 foil arms?

 

[Stingray~]

Interesting new rule query. Queries whether LEQ12 arm stock has to be from supplier to spec before modification.

Is there a definition of 'supplier'?

Who is the AC Rules guy at Ineos, are they new to the game?

 

[JALhazmat]

Interesting new rule query. Queries whether LEQ12 arm stock has to be from supplier to spec before modification.

Given how different Ineos arms appear to be are theirs from that source.
Query claims to be from a team asking for their own arms. But seems a bit late for that. Is someone trying to get Ineos arms declared illegal?

Redirecting

www.google.com

Sounds like it given they are the only team sailing an LEQ12 with arms that are “different”

you can have different arms but you have to modify them from the stock version rather than build them to the exact spec but shorter, more of the oh crap we didn’t think of that from other teams so let’s get it banned and get them off the water

maybe they didnt have much confidence on the build quality they would receive?


interesting also, lots of the teams seem to be taking issue with several aspects of what INEOS is doing. for “a shit campaign” they seem to be irritating everyone.. good.

 

[Mozzy Sails]

Unless ineos are an odd shape proportionally because they're cut down from the ac75 supplied part?

Whereas LR and the AC40 have arms which are purpose built for their yachts.

 

[shebeen]

From technical regulations:
4.21 Version A of a component is the version from which changes to that component are compared and measured. It may be the configuration in which the component was launched, or some other hypothetical configuration.

that's interesting,
So you can build your boat (internally called V1.0) let's say it's really beamy
but before launch you submit some middle of the road hypothetical config (and call it V0.5), which is 12.5% less beamy, but you never even build to this spec
then after some trials you modify it to V2.0, which is really skinny, 12.5% less skinny than your hypothetical one but about 25% skinnier than the boat you actually built.

is that possible (let's forget about the fact that you've basically done a 180' design change, which wouldn't really happen in real life - you'd be refining concepts not throwing them out)?

 

[shebeen]

Unless ineos are an odd shape proportionally because they're cut down from the ac75 supplied part?

Whereas LR and the AC40 have arms which are purpose built for their yachts.

if they're both built by Persico, is there a chance that they are the same?

 

[Mozzy Sails]

There's a chance they're both the same. But certainly smaller than the AC75 specification

 

[Dogfish]

Sorry I am a bit confused are you saying Ineos are using their foil arms from their old AC75 on their LEQ12 ?

 

[Mozzy Sails]

I understood enigmatically and JAL were saying that because the arms on INEOS LEQ12 are obviously different to the ones being used on any other boat, then perhaps this enquiry is aimed at them.

I was offering a different point of view that maybe INEOS' are a different shape because they have cut down an arm stock from their AC75 and so meet the definition, whereas the other have specified and sourced their own stocks. I don't believe that to be true, but was just offering a counter point.

Really I am a bit confused to why this matters. The enquiry is asking whether the definition of foil arm stock in the technical regs has any bearing on determination of equipment quotas. But we already know that due to TR 4.16 that all that matters is what the rules committee think based on resemblance. The foil arm stocks on the LEQ12 don't have to be class legal because they will never race so it's of no relevance the specifics of any rules or definition, only mere resemblance for the counting of part quotas just described above.

This is either INEOS trying to pick holes in the determination of what counts to a quota, or maybe it's one of the other teams who is about take delivery of an AC40 and are wondering about installing a new arm stock.

 

[enigmatically2]

@Mozzy Sails are you still keeping track of hours sailed by each team?

 

[Mozzy Sails]

Yeah I am, but we run a month worth of data at a time. So January hours completed on Tuesday, sheets were uploaded Wednesday by recon teams. Then I shared them with the data guy yesterday. Hopefully will have a monthly recon video out next month

 

[enigmatically2]

First round of reponses on the hydraulic rams query #37. Most of the competitors seem to agree that currently arrangement c is prohibited (though most would support an amendment to allow it)- they point out what I had missed that a double ended ram has to have exactly 3 nodes. Though why you would use a double ended ram rather than single ram and only connect one end is beyond me.

 

[enigmatically2]

returning to query #39, I'm still confused but I have an alternative explanation. The query includes this
"
We are considering parts for an LEQ12 yacht and would like to confirm the requirement for the foil arm stock. Within TR-4.4, the components listed are defined in bold, and thus according to TR-2.3 their meaning is defined in Rule 11 of the AC Technical Regulations.

The Foil Arm Stock is defined as a supplied component and therefore the Foil arm stock for an LEQ12 yacht is supplied from the nominated supplier and to the Foil arm stock specification, prior to any modifications permitted by TR-4.4."

So we are talking about an LEQ12 not an AC75. But I think the only dedicated LEQ12 platforms (LR & Ineos ) are already out there. And there is no restriction I can find on what their foil arm stocks look like or who they are from. But if they are considering modifying an AC40 into an LEQ12 (or someone else doing so), then I wonder whether they are querying whether they HAVE to start from that AC40 stock as their base part before the 20% modification is allowed

 

[JALhazmat]

Can I make my AC40 derived LEQ12 have different arm geometry to mimic INEOS ( if indeed they have gone for a set up that represents a full size AC 75) by building my own arms for it or do I have to use the ones it comes with and then modify those.
and if I make my own then does that count in my allocation

is that the question being asked

 

[Mozzy Sails]

First round of reponses on the hydraulic rams query #37. Most of the competitors seem to agree that currently arrangement c is prohibited (though most would support an amendment to allow it)- they point out what I had missed that a double ended ram has to have exactly 3 nodes. Though why you would use a double ended ram rather than single ram and only connect one end is beyond me.

I think it is purely about fluid regulation for a ram that works in both directions.

A standard ram moves when you push fluid in to the chamber, then relies on release and external force to push it back. This is basically what the main ram on the mainsheet is.

If you want a ram that pulls and pushes at equal speed in both directions (like INEOS outhaul), then you need two chambers with a switch to which chamber is pressurised.

But, the chambers have to be the same volume. So if one side has a piston running through it and the other doesn't, then the ram will move quicker in one direction than the other. To fix that, you an have a redundant piston in the other chamber.

See INEOS outhaul below. Two hose go in, for two chambers. Whereas the mainsheet has one hose, so it can only forcibly move in one direction, and needs the force in the sail to open it up when released.

It doesn't look like INEOS has a piston in forward chamber, meaning you would need more fluid to move the outhaul aft, then you would to more is forward (arrangement A).

Here below Magic has a standard double ended ram. Hoses fed in via the pistons. There is a piston in each chamber so outhaul moves with equal speed in both directions.

 

[Mozzy Sails]

Can I make my AC40 derived LEQ12 have different arm geometry to mimic INEOS ( if indeed they have gone for a set up that represents a full size AC 75) by building my own arms for it or do I have to use the ones it comes with and then modify those.
and if I make my own then does that count in my allocation

is that the question being asked

maybe, but I think it's pretty clear, so either it's a newb question (K-Challenge?) or there is something I am missing (which is quite likely!)

The AC40 arms don't count when in one design. As soon as you modify, or you switch for you own, then it counts. And the definition is neither here nor there as they aren't racing with it, so all that matters is whether the rules committee think it resembles a foil stock arm.

 

[JALhazmat]

Given the recent track record it could resemble anything the team liked and it could be called a foil stock ;-)

 

[Stingray~]

Yeah I am, but we run a month worth of data at a time. So January hours completed on Tuesday, sheets were uploaded Wednesday by recon teams. Then I shared them with the data guy yesterday. Hopefully will have a monthly recon video out next month

Do you also pull and aggregate (if they do not) the daily recon-reported nautical miles sailed, hours sailed, numbers of tacks and gibes, how many dry, windspeed range, etc?

The nice GPS tracks (of the chase boat, surely) could be fun information too; although I have not yet figured out how