Recon diary

[Mozzy Sails]

I do tacks and gybes, foiling, splash down and non-foiling.

Distances and actual moving time v time on the water we will eventually pull from the GPS... but still need some time to figure that out reliably.

We're also getting a bit of a database of parts, how many hours they were sailed before revision etc. Again, early days so it's not that interesting yet, most are on their first foils and only a couple of revisions. Anything visually different I can see I point out. But over time it will be interesting to see the design evolution and the timing of when they burn through quota

 

[Stingray~]

I do tacks and gybes, foiling, splash down and non-foiling.

Distances and actual moving time v time on the water we will eventually pull from the GPS... but still need some time to figure that out reliably.

We're also getting a bit of a database of parts, how many hours they were sailed before revision etc. Again, early days so it's not that interesting yet, most are on their first foils and only a couple of revisions. Anything visually different I can see I point out. But over time it will be interesting to see the design evolution and the timing of when they burn through quota

Awesome. It may be possible to automate the pull of those daily values if the format does not change, and especially so if they provide that also in a better recon file format.

re:

Distances and actual moving time v time on the water we will eventually pull from the GPS... but still need some time to figure that out reliably.

That could be gold, some day. Do you have access to those GPS data files?

 

[The_Alchemist]

I presume LR will get an AC40 to two boat test their LEQ12 with? That would be interesting?

I was responding to post #721 that the T6 is slower than the AC40. This would make it useless for 2 boat racing against the AC40 and thus another self inflected handicap.

 

[JALhazmat]

so any speed discrepancy means a boat is useless for two boat testing If its INEOS

yet if the LR leq12 is slower or faster that makes it interesting? and wouldn’t be a self induced handicap.

what if the fully developed race boat AC40 is faster than both? Is it still interesting for LR or a self induced handicap?

really weird, how peoples bias effects things.

 

[Dogfish]

Ok I am sticking my neck out early, the next cup will be won by a boat with anhedral foils.

 

[Stingray~]

 

[Stingray~]

 

[enigmatically2]

Good analysis, good video @Mozzy Sails . I think the system of moving the sheet angle is good and we will see something similar on all boats. But I agree, I can't see the benefits of the hydraulic jib traveller being worth it.
But as a development system I guess it allows experimentation

 

[Stingray~]

Good analysis, good video @Mozzy Sails . I think the system of moving the sheet angle is good and we will see something similar on all boats. But I agree, I can't see the benefits of the hydraulic jib traveller being worth it.
But as a development system I guess it allows experimentation

Very good analysis, yes.

One of the possible benefits Mozzy mentions might be in the ability to peel out of head-to-wind situations more quickly; they do sometimes happen in match racing starts, could be a weapon.

edit: that video clip shown of Ineos bearing away and starting with the jib sheeted to windward, is the perfect clip for demonstration

 

[The_Alchemist]

so any speed discrepancy means a boat is useless for two boat testing If its INEOS

yet if the LR leq12 is slower or faster that makes it interesting? and wouldn’t be a self induced handicap.

what if the fully developed race boat AC40 is faster than both? Is it still interesting for LR or a self induced handicap?

really weird, how peoples bias effects things.

No bias, just facts. I spent my whole career doing research and product development.

It is much more accurate to measure the impact of changes if you do them one at a time instead of all in a handful. Having two ”identical“ AC40’s on autopilot is an ideal situation to minimize the noise and give the best comparison between changes. Having one boat that is significantly slower and with a completely different design adds several variable that have to be estimated out in order to measure any changes. This adds a lot of noise to the process and makes it very difficult to actually measure slight improvement.

There are already so many variables like sea state, wind variations and boat handling that make it very difficult to measure absolute changes. No need to throw in a test platform that can’t keep on the foil over 50% of the time in maneuvers. They will be able to measure large improvements using the T6 vs AC40, but the smaller incremental changes will be difficult.

 

[The_Alchemist]

Ok I am sticking my neck out early, the next cup will be won by a boat with anhedral foils.

So, AM did have one think right…lol

 

[Dogfish]

The Ineos track is all about leech control and making a better entry and flow onto the bottom of the mainsail. If you link it with mast rotation you maybe able to much improve the slot effect in this area reducing drag and increasing lift. It's certainly worth the extra complication and effort.

 

[enigmatically2]

The Ineos track is all about leech control and making a better entry and flow onto the bottom of the mainsail. If you link it with mast rotation you maybe able to much improve the slot effect in this area reducing drag and increasing lift. It's certainly worth the extra complication and effort.

We all (I think) agree the double track and the leech control is worth it. But why not let it slide across controlled via a rope to centre-line?
The gain of that is what seems marginal

 

[Sailbydate]

Interesting. What would the total weight (at deck level) be for that whole system? 80kgs or so?

 

[Sailbydate]

Ok I am sticking my neck out early, the next cup will be won by a boat with anhedral foils.

That was also a prediction for AC36, IIRC. These things take time, I guess. ;-)

 

[Stingray~]

Interesting. What would the total weight (at deck level) be for that whole system? 80kgs or so?

It does look heavy, with as Mozzy explains so well likely 3 hydro cylinders inside. But in the overall scheme, and especially if they tuck it below deck and out of the wind? Looks like a great idea to me.

And as Dogfish posted, perfecting the slot must be very important at any speed they will race at.

 

[Dogfish]

We all (I think) agree the double track and the leech control is worth it. But why not let it slide across controlled via a rope to centre-line?
The gain of that is what seems marginal

There will be big gains in the prestart were you are able to back the sail.

 

[Sailbydate]

There will be big gains in the prestart were you are able to back the sail.

Really? Won't be much help unless they're off the foils, surely? Dunking the windward foil seems like a much better 'high speed' control to me - and keep flying.

 

[Stingray~]

Alinghi, bearing off first in R1 of AC33. You can hear Rennmaus saying 'Classic Start!'

You can see what happened when CZ was able to bear away much sooner than DZ.



On the water, pre-start, Race 1, America's Cup 33, Feb 12 2010, Valencia

 

[Kiwing]

Ok I am sticking my neck out early, the next cup will be won by a boat with anhedral foils.

I throw an imaginary hypothesis in here.
IMHO the flexible dihedral foil is what the winner (ETNZ?) will win with.
For max speed curved "banana" foil and when entering the "up" motion of the water in a wave
For max lift on the "down" motion of the water in a wave or when angle of attack is used to get max lift when taking off.
How is that for out of left field?