Recon diary

[ChairborneRanger]

1 set of race foils. That's it.

Makes sense. With lighter winds and waves this time, the question is whether it is still the right side of trade offs I guess .
I can't check right now, are they allowed to choose different foils for different races at all? How much notice?

 

[enigmatically2]

So definitely have to choose between the 2 quite different strategies. Unless.someone can come up with a compromise foil

 

[barfy]

So definitely have to choose between the 2 quite different strategies. Unless.someone can come up with a compromise foil

I would think that all design choices, especially foils, would be a compromise rather than a choice between binary alternatives.

 

[enigmatically2]

I would think that all design choices, especially foils, would be a compromise rather than a choice between binary alternatives.

Well at the moment it's hard to see a compromise between the thin NZ foils, and the Ineos W foils.unless someone can make w foils with no actuators in and make them thin but still give flap control

 

[Sailbydate]

Race boat gets one set of foils and that’s it. Apart from the % change allowed

So, if they do race with it, IB had better be right about their Frankinfoil, otherwise there will be no resurrection.

 

[enigmatically2]

So, if they do race with it, IB had better be right about their Frankinfoil, otherwise there will be no resurrection.

Exactly, and given the success NZ had with theirs last time it seems quite wild. So do they think the lower wind and waves will invalidate the NZ foil approach? Or they can adapt this W to be thin and clean too? They aren't testing this because they are as dumb as 4. They must have some reason they think this could work

 

[JALhazmat]

So, if they do race with it, IB had better be right about their Frankinfoil, otherwise there will be no resurrection.

No you are allowed one foil on your race boat,
you can’t make three try them and declare one to race with

once it’s on the boat that's it, you get one shot

all the teams have to make a very careful decision on what they choose to build as they can’t change it

 

[Forourselves]

Exactly, and given the success NZ had with theirs last time it seems quite wild. So do they think the lower wind and waves will invalidate the NZ foil approach? Or they can adapt this W to be thin and clean too? They aren't testing this because they are as dumb as 4. They must have some reason they think this could work

And Team NZ must've had a reason to think the Hula worked too right? I mean Mike Drummond and Tom Schnakenberg were experts in their fields, so no one is saying they're "dumb" Even though most people, including myself think the Hula was a dumb idea. And that boat by Team NZ's own admission, just did not work, so sometimes some ideas are "dumb" but sometimes in the absence of any other ideas, the dumb ideas are the only ideas left.

INEOS have a track record of ideas and designs just not working. Their AC50, their first generation AC75, a boat designed to foil, they designed theirs to float! Their second generation AC75 had all sorts of problems, and their T6 obviously isn't working as planned either. By Bens own admission in the latest recon video, "they want the boat to be going faster" but are prepared to sacrifice the speed in order to produce quality data.

Most if not all other teams are able to produce the speed AND quality data, where it seems INEOS have to go slow in order to produce the kind of data they're after.

Most of what they've designed and built so far, by their own admission, hasn't worked. And so far there's no reason to think what they're doing now is working either.

 

[jaysper]

Well at the moment it's hard to see a compromise between the thin NZ foils, and the Ineos W foils.unless someone can make w foils with no actuators in and make them thin but still give flap control

Yep, you're either walking or driving unless you borrow a car from Fred Flintstone.
Personally I think the W foils are and always were a dumb ass idea purely in terms of the drag, but fuck nose.

 

[enigmatically2]

@Mozzy Sails how many leq12 foils have each team used so far?

 

[robingimblett]

No you are allowed one foil on your race boat,
you can’t make three try them and declare one to race with

once it’s on the boat that's it, you get one shot

all the teams have to make a very careful decision on what they choose to build as they can’t change it

Exactly. They choose a concept and that's it. They can make some adjustments to a limited % of the foil though. So if you're hedging, you want to go with the concept that most teams are testing, particularly those likely to win. You have to be pretty confident in your concept if it's different to all the others. That said, the one concept only limitation is an opportunity to leave your opponents guessing. So far INEOs have tested both concepts so they could go either way whereas ETNZ, Prada appear to be fixed on a concept already.

 

[enigmatically2]

Which is why I asked how many leq12 wings have been declared.
AC75s are allowed 3 wings so in theory you could launch with 2 different concepts on either side and decide which option you choose for your 3rd. In practice the LEQ12s are the place to test those options
Have any teams test enough variants that they have effectively ruled out other options?

 

[buckdouger]

Which is why I asked how many leq12 wings have been declared.
AC75s are allowed 3 wings so in theory you could launch with 2 different concepts on either side and decide which option you choose for your 3rd. In practice the LEQ12s are the place to test those options
Have any teams test enough variants that they have effectively ruled out other options?

Other than AC40 wings, I think it's:
LR 2
Ineos 3
ETNZ 1
AM 1
a
Alinghi 0

 

[enigmatically2]

Other than AC40 wings, I think it's:
LR 2
Ineos 3
ETNZ 1
AM 1
a
Alinghi 0

Which is about what I thought. So no-one has ruled out a radical option yet. Will anyone else try one?

 

[Mozzy Sails]

Other than AC40 wings, I think it's:
LR 2
Ineos 3
ETNZ 1
AM 1
a
Alinghi 0

Orient Express 0....

 

[olo.0815]

In terms of project timeline, the decision on the hull-shape should be on the critical path. Can anyone think of a foil characteristic that would impact the hull shape (and vice versa)? What is the benefit of testing different foils early on vs. later, say after the hull shape is fixed? How about sails & controls? To me they seem to have a bigger interaction with the hull, so testing those early (like AM & NZ & RB on the big boat, Ineos with their jib car, LR with their LEQ) seems very relevant. Other thoughts?

 

[enigmatically2]

Good question. There is certainly impact on the hull design, and we seem to have seen main controls being tested early.
Interaction between bustle and foil? Some I guess.
Ineos changed their bustle at the same time as testing radi al new foils. Is that significant? I think we need to see more teams reconfigure to see a pattern

 

[buckdouger]

Sure, less foil lift on the low end of speed against greater bustle depth/continued buoyancy at same speed?

 

[barfy]

Have any teams test enough variants that they have effectively ruled out other options?

Wouldn't it make sense to test variations on a sim, decide which path you are going to take, then get the maximum number of design iterations with real datum?
If the "W" doesn't work out that's a foil down the drain.

 

[enigmatically2]

Wouldn't it make sense to test variations on a sim, decide which path you are going to take, then get the maximum number of design iterations with real datum?
If the "W" doesn't work out that's a foil down the drain.

Obviously to a large extent, but if you have never sailed (say) a W or something else radical then your SIM will be less accurate. Given the margins and trade-offs in play, that inaccuracy might tell you the wrong answer as to whether it is worth it.