Red Over Green Sailing Machine

[climenuts]

Stan Honey et. al. did a nice write up: http://honeynav.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/OC4biNavigationLightReportVerFinal-25596.pdf

I didn't re-read it but IIRC it discusses the Red over green, issues with heights, Tricolours, high angles of heel, and solutions which fit within IRPCAS requirements on modern sailboats.

 

[Boathavn]

Someone looking at your lights with the naked eye can distinguish two items (lights) if they are about an arc minute apart, which translates to roughly 1m at 2nm. If the lights are closer together, they will be observed as one, not two lights.

Though not required by the USCG for all-around, 360-degree Nav lights, a 1-meter separation between the two colored "lanterns" via a mast mounting mechanism makes sense.

I guess if you didn't physically space them apart, from certain angles and distances you would perceive them as an amber light.

 

[TJSoCal]

Practical Sailor article discusses building DIY hoistable "restricted ability to maneuver" lights and also discusses use for red over green

RAM Lights for Sailboats - Practical Sailor

Since 1974, Practical Sailor’s independent testing has taken the guesswork out of boat and gear buying.

www.practical-sailor.com

 

[Mark Morwood]

Though not required by the USCG for all-around, 360-degree Nav lights, a 1-meter separation between the two colored "lanterns" via a mast mounting mechanism makes sense.

Colregs which the USCG regs are based on does require 1m separation on boats <20m and 2m separation on boats >=20m.

Colregs Annex 1.2(i) says:

(i) When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical line, they shall be spaced as follows:

(i) on a vessel of 20 m in length or more such lights shall be spaced not less than 2 m apart, and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a
towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 4 m above the hull;
(ii) on a vessel of less than 20 m in length such lights shall be spaced not less than 1 m apart and the lowest of these lights shall, except where
a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 2 m above the gunwalel;
(iii) when three lights are carried they shall be equally spaced.

 

[Grizz]

Recently took the 8 hour NYS safe boating course. Made me want to poke my eyes out, but this is from the study guide.

 

[Al Paca]

I think I’m having a flashback

 

[El Borracho]

When near shipping lanes at night I turn on my “upper deck work light” which could be mistaken for an anchor light. Having a bored watch stander on a freighter know that something is there is more important than strict interpretation of regulations.

 

[Boathavn]

COLREGS are the Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972 managed by the Internation Maritime Organization.

It takes the IMO a long laborious process to update something, so that's likely why the latest lighting standard is from 1972. US Coast Guard regulations should be in harmony with the International agreed COLREGS (as should every other sea-going nation's local regulations as well as industry lighting construction standards for boat manufacture).

I found the circa 1987 legacy drawing for the Perko 'Red over Green'. It is stamped that it meets the USCG and 1972 COLREGS requirements.

But as suggested in the earlier posts above in this thread, the clear reasoning for a 1- or 2-meter requirement for vertical spacing between Red and Green is clear as per the COLREGS 1972.

So how'd this happen?

My guess is a combination of these:

The use of 'Red over Green' at the top of the mast is fairly obscure - at least in the US (most sailboats I observe use the more conventional deck/bow/stern-mounted lights - I have found only two boats in my marina that have 'Red over Green' and they are both European in origin).

Also, US Coast Guard consumer publications are aimed at your typical Joe Blow boater, and concepts are dumbed-down using pictograms embedded in consumer documents rather than communicated by written requirements.

Perko has many of their legacy catalogs online, so I found this diagram circa 1970 which I think was lifted from a Coast Guard document of the period:

Note there is an inferred spacing represented between the Red and Green stack's fields of vision. (This inferred spacing still exists in the pictograms in the current USCG lighting pamphlet if you stare at it long enough). Note it also says "Optional for International waters only".

The legacy drawing for the Perko 'Red over Green' (RB200 DUAL TIER), and its stamped Coast Guard Approved (upper right corner) and COLREG 1972 compliant.

Per the product drawing, the design is clearly 'Red over Green' with no possibility for spacing - the two color lenses are mounted in the same lamp body.

Hella and other marine lighting companies make/made these in this format. So clearly they are/were a thing, somewhere at some time.

My theory is that "Red over Green" was a pre-1972 legacy (European?) convention that never got fully harmonized with the 1972 COLREGS. The details were to be in the ANNEX ("Positioning and technical details of lights and shapes") and by the time they got to writing this section the sailboat people had already gone to the bar. Thus they forgot to add "sailboats" to the section when defining spacing requirements for "lights in a vertical line". All other signals, lit or unlit have defined spacings. The ambiguity has lived on in bad USCG artwork and stacked 'Red over Green" use was so obscure that nobody ever noticed or questioned the issue of spacing.

I'm sure any chroma (color) expert would tell you stacking red immediately on top of green is not a good idea.

Can any international readers want to chime in on how common closely stacked "Red over Green" navigation lights are in their neck of the woods?

Anyway, a stacked or one-meter spaced 360 degree - 'all round' 'Red over Green' implementation is legal, with the wider suggested one-meter spacing likely giving better visual performance.

Be the first in your marina to have a red-over-green one meter spaced setup - all the kids are doing it!

Ave obscuritas gloriosa !

 

[bgytr]

The practicality of adding a 1 meter spar at the top of a mast means almost no sailboat will have the red over green lights. Weight up high, reduced overhead clearance, maintenance, etc...
I have never seen one in my 60 years on coastal and ocean waters with hundreds of thousands of logged miles. Doesn't mean they aren't there, but they are rare enough that I've never seen them. So it's almost a totally useless optional suggestion of the rules. Why have it at all? Or come up with a practical light configuration that will get implemented if the rule makers think that night lights for sailboats under sail power alone is a good idea.

 

[Talchotali]

come up with a practical light configuration that will get implemented if the rule makers think that night lights for sailboats under sail power alone is a good idea

Eye of Sauron?

 

[bgytr]

Eye of Sauron?


View attachment 523826

That would do it...

 

[10thTonner]

Does anyone know how the other x over y rules are implemented, if at all? As I recall, green over red = fishing vessel, white over red = pilot (“white hat, red nose“). Never seen it in real life …

 

[Talchotali]

Does anyone know how the other x over y rules are implemented, if at all? As I recall, green over red = fishing vessel, white over red = pilot (“white hat, red nose“)

Numerous educational flash card manufacturers have implemented marine color standards for SAFELASH (Safety of Educational Flashcards).

However I can't seem to find a modern deck with the "Captain's pants brown, ship going down" card.

 

[Mark Morwood]

Does anyone know how the other x over y rules are implemented, if at all? As I recall, green over red = fishing vessel, white over red = pilot (“white hat, red nose“). Never seen it in real life …

Any significant commercial vessel typically shows the correct lights as otherwise they are very exposed legally in the event of a collision. Smaller "semi-commercial" vessels like near shore fishing boats sometimes don't. But yes, I have seen correct lights on fishing vessels, pilot vessels, dredges and other vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre, and probably most importantly towing vessels which you do not want to go behind but in front of the tow.