Rights on a start line with obstructions

[bissona]

Sorry, another start line rules question but not one we can find a clear answer to.

Bonkers start line for a coastal course, set for lots of bad reasons and, despite being argued by the fleet in the minutes leading up to the race, left as was for the start.

Everyone at the pin end, predicatably enough, which was a stick on top of a reef. Reef was c.2m under water, most boats with 1.7m to 2.4m draft.

Red boat gets a near perfect start and heads windward towards the first mark. Black boat cannot bear away behind Red or will hit transom, cannot luff up or may hit reef, cannot tack onto Blue boat as good chance Blue will hit reef if forced to tack or point higher.

Black boat points high, somehow clears the reef heads, protested by Red for not keeping clear to windward. Red would've like to force Black above the pin but boats not close enough at that stage.

• Did Red have rights to force Black over the reef?
• Did Black need to exit the situation earlier to stop putting Blue in an untenable situation where they could neither slow down sufficiently to duck Blue nor tack out?
• What would you do if helming any of the three boats?

 

[TJSoCal]

I'm wondering if the reef would be considered to be "intentionally attached" to the mark stick.

 

[Brass]

I'm wondering if the reef would be considered to be "intentionally attached" to the mark stick.

WTF?

The starting mark is NOT surrounded by navigable water.

Preamble to Section C does NOT switch off rules 18, 19, and 20.

The starting. mark and the reef are a continuing obstruction.

Rule 18 does not apply.

OP description is not consistent with diagram.

As diagrammed:

Boats are reaching. There is no entitlement to hail under rule 20.

It's a straight up rule 19, room for Black and Blue pass between Red and the obstruction.

 

[beercanned]

The only reason to select that as a start / finish line is so the Race Committee doesn't have to leave their seats in the lounge.

 

[Snaggletooth]

• Did Red have rights to force Black over the reef? - no
• Did Black need to exit the situation earlier to stop putting Blue in an untenable situation where they could neither slow down sufficiently to duck Blue nor tack out? - no
• What would you do if helming any of the three boats? - try notte saille into badde situation

 

[Raz'r]

WTF?

The starting mark is NOT surrounded by navigable water.

Preamble to Section C does NOT switch off rules 18, 19, and 20.

The starting. mark and the reef are a continuing obstruction.

Rule 18 does not apply.

OP description is not consistent with diagram.

As diagrammed:

Boats are reaching. There is no entitlement to hail under rule 20.

It's a straight up rule 19, room for Black and Blue pass between Red and the obstruction.

Check the start line at the St Francis YC....

Only obstructed on one end, but still....

 

[beercanned]

Check the start line at the St Francis YC....

Only obstructed on one end, but still....

But St. Fanny's has an inner distance mark so we don't have to sail into the seawall.

 

[bissona]

Thanks for the replies all, very helpful.

Our understanding of the situation was also that Rule 19.2(b) applied, and that, although the pole on the Reef is potentially navigable, there’s a 90m long reef underneath (sorry, it's actually a lot bigger than my crap diagram) with a variety of heads at different depths that is not reliably navigable once you are caught between it and a boat to leeward.

The pin end, in this case, with its underwater obstructions, would therefore constitute a ‘continuing obstruction’. That point, of course is arguable, but Ant Davey (International Judge) has this to say on such situations:

“a sailor need only ask him or herself, Can I sail around it now? If the answer is No, I still need to avoid it, then the obstruction is continuing. The definition doesn't provide any further assistance, hence our debate. 19.2(a) says a boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side. By inference only, one could suggest that an object that can only be passed in one direction would be a continuing obstruction. That argument, as you say, falls when applied to small islands that may be found on lakes of all sizes. However, an ongoing need to avoid it - for an as yet undetermined, but significant period - would make it a continuing obstruction. As for the time period concerned I would resort to the rule of thumb that I've been taught - particularly in relation to Rule 15 and the local interpretation of initially - of about 3 seconds. So, if a substantial change of course is needed for more than 3 seconds, the obstruction could be considered as ongoing.”

 

[Jethrow]

It seems to me that in this particular situation, if the post on the reef is a regular end of the start line, that defining it a continuing obstruction in the SI's might save everyone some grief.

 

[DA-WOODY]

if it's a Known to You Hazard, You can NOT sail over it

Keep Clear and ask for a RedDress

a race around an island, or not ended with ZUNGA Jetty more or less

being a finish mark at Night

don't remember anyone dying

butt still

 

[Old Pirate]

But St. Fanny's has an inner distance mark so we don't have to sail into the seawall.

Yeah but if you start on starboard (assuming a west-ish breeze) at the B (inner) mark, the seawall becomes an obstruction quickly and you'll be hailing for room to tack. Unless you nailed the start and everyone else was late, you'll be on port ducking half the fleet with the crowd in the Men's Grill Room mocking you.

 

[atnan]

 

[SloopJonB]

This thread is a perfect illustration of why I was never interested in formal racing.

The fact that squeezing someone onto a reef is even a question.

Is Corinthianism even a word anymore?

 

[bissona]

This thread is a perfect illustration of why I was never interested in formal racing.

The fact that squeezing someone onto a reef is even a question.

Is Corinthianism even a word anymore?

^this. We've had that chat now, don't think it'll happen again....

 

[Steam Flyer]

This thread is a perfect illustration of why I was never interested in formal racing.

The fact that squeezing someone onto a reef is even a question.

Is Corinthianism even a word anymore?

Or centerboards?
I raced a daggerboard boat for years around here, it took a surprisingly long time for people to learn to not push me towards shore/shallow water.

 

[Lowly Crew]

Bizarrely I read this thread title as : rights for obstetricians and was thinking someone got screwed or f****d from the start.