Room to Tack question

on our wed beer cans,  we usually just toss a single mark for the committee end and use a pier at the dock as a pin...  there are a number of docks perpendicular to the line running up the course side of the line..     so at a start, boats closer to the docks will have to tack to port as they will run out of room which makes the leeward boats call out for room to tack..      so does the leeward (hailing boat) after tacking to port have to avoid a windward boat still on starboard which may call out  YOU TACK in response to the hail ?    Rule 20 seems ambigous

20.2Responding(a)

After a boat hails, she shall give a hailed boat time to respond.

(b)A hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.

(c)A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.  (who is avoiding who here?)

(d)When a hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

(e)From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them

 

AnotherSailor

Super Anarchist
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Not much ambiguity, if any. If you hail because you are about to run into an obstacle, the other boat has to get out of there by either tacking as well or ducking you. 

How much time is needed depends on the boat you sail (a laser tacking requires a lot less room and time than a 30 foot full keel boat). The intention here is that you do not provide a one second warning to a boat that needs 10 seconds to prepare for a tack, or more likely, you do not provide 5 seconds to a boat that needs about 15 seconds. 

 

Meat Wad

Super Anarchist
Sounds like a wicked start and you are starting on Stbd and will run out of room very quickly. if the docks were gone it would be shore or another pier?

Seems like the RC should put the Buoy skewed radically to favor Pier end where the RC is. The boat that nails it would have clear air and be bow out for the tack to Port.

A diagram is always good.

 

Rambler

Anarchist
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East Coast OZ
You are right, in that, in plain English terms, there is an ambiguity in 20.2 (c) that I hadn't noticed before.

"A hailed boat shall respond by........giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her"

So it can be read as either the hailed boat or the hailing boat being obliged to avoid the other (with the only constant being that the hailed boat must allow room for the avoidance).

Paragraph (e) might suggest it is the hailing boat which needs to do the avoidance...

"From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a hailed boat..."

So in that clause the focus is very much on the hailing boat as the party doing the avoidance and one might argue this needs to be read back into clause (c) to establish its intention.

But the difference is fairly marginal in terms of outcome on the water. One way or another, the hailed boat has to allow the hailing boat room for it to tack and clear the hailed boat. I can really only see arguments arising where the hailed boat choses not to tack and instead does something which seeks to allow the hailing boat to complete its tack as long as one party or the other then takes some subsequent avoiding action; the issue then being who has the obligation to take the avoiding action. Seems a bit too fine an argument to get into in a beer can race. 

 
      docks on the left,  so my question, does blue on port have to duck yellow on starboard if yellow decides to continue with a you tack  given he has kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack

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Brass

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Case 35
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Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding





When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies “You tack,” and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c).
medium.png



Case 101
 ​




Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding





When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room for a manoeuvre, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to room. When, in reply to her call for room to tack when approaching an obstruction, a boat is hailed “You tack”, and when she does so and is then able to tack again to keep clear in a seamanlike way, the other boat has given the room required.
 
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AnotherSailor

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Again, there is no ambiguity:

A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her. 

There is only one subject in this sentence: "A hailed boat."

The hailed boat either tacks or is "giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her."

There is absolutely no ambiguity here! It is to the hailed boat to avoid the hailing boat and to avoid her (the hailing boat). If it would have said "giving the hailing boat room to tack so she can avoid" it would be a different story. But how the hell would that make sense?

Always remember: the RRS are meant to make sense and they are by and large common sense. So don't try to read something in there that beats the basic rules of grammar and logic. 

 
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climenuts

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I agree with @Brass It's room to tack not room to tack and then keep sailing. As long as the boat can complete its tack the hailed boat is fine to hold their course and force the hailing boat to tack or duck.

The one question I have is: Does this rule apply on the pre-start side? Are boats entitled to room pre-start or can you force them into irons?

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
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Rule 20 is a rule of Part 2.

The preamble to Part 2 states

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing

 

JohnMB

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Evanston
The dock is not an obstruction to yellow
I think it is,

its just an obstruction that yellow can fetch.

ref case 125 for an instance were boats are approaching an obstruction that they can pass without changing course.

 
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AnotherSailor

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      docks on the left,  so my question, does blue on port have to duck yellow on starboard if yellow decides to continue with a you tack  given he has kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack

View attachment 398990
Well, after the tack yellow has the right of way. If that is the case then the yellow does not need to have "kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack" because yellow cannot be both in the path of the tack of blue, and be in the path of blue after the tack. It is either one or the other. 

 

Rambler

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East Coast OZ
Again, there is no ambiguity:

A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her. 

There is only one subject in this sentence: "A hailed boat."

The hailed boat either tacks or is "giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her."

There is absolutely no ambiguity here! It is to the hailed boat to avoid the hailing boat and to avoid her (the hailing boat). If it would have said "giving the hailing boat room to tack so she can avoid" it would be a different story. But how the hell would that make sense?

Always remember: the RRS are meant to make sense and they are by and large common sense. So don't try to read something in there that beats the basic rules of grammar and logic. 
While I agree with your overall conclusion, it is not sufficient to say the hailed boat is the only subject of the sentence to decide the matter; even though I'm assuming you are saying that the 'her' can then only relate to the hailed boat.

Indeed, the logical outcome of your statement is that, as the subject of the sentence, it is the hailed boat's obligation to do the avoiding. Not the conclusion you (or I) come to.

There is one of two less ambiguous statements that would summarize the possible outcomes (both with the hailed boat as the subject of the sentence).

Firstly, the hailed boat shall.......

  1. reply you tack; then
  2. give the hailing boat room to tack; and then
  3. avoid her

The alternative is the hailed boat shall

  1. reply you tack; then
  2. give the hailing boat enough room to tack and then avoid her

It is the latter we both seem to support.

 

CaptainAhab

Anarchist
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South Australia
Event #1  is “ I need water” port/starboard & windward/leeward are irrelevant. The onus is first on the boat that needs room to hail. Then it switches to the other boat. Once that whole event is worked out the rules reset.
 

Event #2 the port boat needs to keep clear of the starboard boat. 

You question is like I need room? The other guy says you tack except he doesn’t give you enough room to tack thereby causing a collision between you, him, the obstruction or all three. In that case he is at fault. 

What’s the worst damage so far?

 
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The Q

Super Anarchist
This is common in our river racing, the start line for instance has wooden quay headings both ends of the line.. (Mostly 20ft ish keel boats but anything from oppies to 45ft yachts could be out there)

It's all about judgement on whether the blue boat can drop under yellow in a Seaman like manner, if it's a huge swerve barely in control, then Yellow is a fault, if its a gentle drop of the nose, the Yellow will be OK,  IF the Blue boat has completed her tack.

And that is what the dispute would be in the protest, If blue hasn't completed her tack therefore she hasn't been given room, if she has completed her tack then it's port starboard. You need witnesses or better a video to prove this one..

The worst situation I've had in this, was about 35 years ago, admittedly in a fleet of dinghies, not keelboats. We had both ends of the fleet calling for room to tack off the bank, and the middle of the fleet calling for water round the buoy...

I came out of it well,  most of the fleet were so locked together,  they all went on past the buoy while sorting themselves out.   A couple of other slow boats and me swept round the buoy in comparative space, to be chased down later..

 
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