Route du Rhum Multi vs Class40 monos

karst

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Did you even look at the Rhum Multi entry list?
Plenty of high performance multis including ORMA 60's but more specific to the question - a state of the art, foil equipped, carbon, 40' tri that is currently out there upside down and was days behind the Class 40's before it flipped.
So why do you think that is?
I looked at the first two or 3 to finish. After your comment I went back and checked. I see one F50 from ‘87 and an Orma from ‘90 in addition to lots of cruising cats. I also see that the average skipper age of the multi class seems to be about 60 years old. The age of the Class 40 skippers seems closer to 35 years old. I think the Class 40 seems to be a pro circuit, the Multi class seems to be a French version of the ARC. Its the same phenomenon with Use It Again. I think it’s best explained by the age/skill of the sailor in the respective classes and the boat‘s age/purpose.
 

14berlin

Member
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Munich
And still nobody will answer my damn question about having some kind of fuse on the multihull sheets. I thought that would be a relatively simple safety contraption at this point. Anybody knows?
Easing sheets doesn't do much when you are off the wind. When the bows dig in, the apparent wind doubles and the T-foils pop out, it's over.

Gilles:
a bad set of waves and a downburst gust combined capsize, the sheet was eased the lack of boatspeed when the gust hit ....she just dug in.

My armchair take on this: downwind in waves you can only push so hard that you survive a full stop / down the mine scenario. A multi like Jess cannot rely on lifting boards or the T-foils as they only work when at speed. To survive the worst case it can only put up as much sail as the short and narrow amas can support, so it's way off it's full (foil assisted) potential.
The Class 40's scow bows on the other hand provide tons of lift and don't dig in.

The Ultimes seem to have much longer bows compared to their rig size whereas Jess looks like it could pitchpole with just the mast up in bad conditions.

MjAyMjExMmI4OTNlOGE3N2Q5MWFiOGVlOWYxMjQxMjQzMjRkNmE.jpg

maxresdefault.jpg
 

munt

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Ok, so 2 things to consider: the anti capsize systems are very expensive (probably a lot less than it's gonna cost to recover the flipped boats) and perhaps flipping was virtually inevitable in the case of the tri? If the tri is certain to flip in those circumstances (is it?) then you have to wonder if it's an appropriate design for this kind of racing. I remember the vid of Coville almost pitchpoling at the start of a record attempt... It certainly answers the original question as to why the 40 foot monos are perhaps a better tool for the job and so appealing for top sailors who want to do that kind of racing.
 

harryproa

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I'm still wondering if there isn't some kind of anti flipping fuse on the multis?
The Upside Up is pretty common on the big budget boats and many other options have been tried. None work well on courses where when the sheet is eased, the main hits the shrouds or the headsail flogs or does not ease completely. When the system relies on sheet release, there can also be issues with too many turns on the winch, the sheet tangling or a hockle forming as it runs out. There can also be issues with slow release due to too many blocks in the system.

Further complications arise when waves are included in the release mechanism.

There is a far simpler, almost free solution, but it relies on having an unstayed, self vanging (wishbone boom, ballestron, fixed boom, etc) rig so the main can weathercock regardless of the wind angle and the main sheet is only altering the angle of incidence, not tensioning the leech. A wand similar to the foil wand on a moth can be set to release the sheet at a predetermined angle of heel or pitch. If the point of release is between the boom and the winch, it will not matter how many turns are on the winch, or if someone is standing on the sheet.

This system will be tested on the prototype cargo proa, but variations of it have been successfully used on other harryproas. Whether the advantages of not having to worry about capsize will overcome the disadvantages (many of which are the result of less time and money invested compared to stayed rigs) of the unstayed rig for racing is yet to be seen, but being able to push the boat as hard as the self righting monos, and arriving at the finish rather than being rescued are pretty compelling reasons to give it a try.
 

SeaGul

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Oslo Norway
To measure C40 monos to the Rhum Multi Class is totally wrong - its the latest and most competitive monos and crews - against old design multis or cruising/racers with old skippers basically - the Ocean 50 class would be a more correct class to see the difference monos/multis. The fastest O50 made it in 10d 21h - the fastest C40 was 14 d 3h.
 

eastern motors

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154
Aren't the leaders of class 40 fighting for IMOCA 60 boats/sponsors? Whereas the "rhumb multi" seems to be a lot of retired IMOCA sailors?
 

boardhead

Anarchist
Ok, so 2 things to consider: the anti capsize systems are very expensive (probably a lot less than it's gonna cost to recover the flipped boats) and perhaps flipping was virtually inevitable in the case of the tri? If the tri is certain to flip in those circumstances (is it?) then you have to wonder if it's an appropriate design for this kind of racing. I remember the vid of Coville almost pitchpoling at the start of a record attempt... It certainly answers the original question as to why the 40 foot monos are perhaps a better tool for the job and so appealing for top sailors who want to do that kind of racing.
More likely in the absense of any interest in developing a 40' multihull for this purpose (short handed, fast, safe, offshore sailing) we focused on other criteria and then when a race with these demands occurs we bring what we have.
While the latest Class 40 may work admirably in the current R-du-R remember it has developed specifically for this purpose - a race that was and has previously seen a delayed start due to inclement weather, unlike the OSTAR which influenced "offshore F40" for so long.
 

boardhead

Anarchist
Aren't the leaders of class 40 fighting for IMOCA 60 boats/sponsors? Whereas the "rhumb multi" seems to be a lot of retired IMOCA sailors?
Class 40 compete at heir highest level in R-du-R. IMOCA 60 in Vendee Globe - amateur graduating to professional - then Ultime.
Why mess around with monohulls when you could perfect your multihull skills from the get go (Jean le Cam, Francis Joyon, Cam Lewis, Randy Smyth etc,etc)
In the meantime modern 40' trimarans are slow compared to 40' monohulls - it's sad.
 

boardhead

Anarchist
The Upside Up is pretty common on the big budget boats and many other options have been tried. None work well on courses where when the sheet is eased, the main hits the shrouds or the headsail flogs or does not ease completely. When the system relies on sheet release, there can also be issues with too many turns on the winch, the sheet tangling or a hockle forming as it runs out. There can also be issues with slow release due to too many blocks in the system.

Further complications arise when waves are included in the release mechanism.

There is a far simpler, almost free solution, but it relies on having an unstayed, self vanging (wishbone boom, ballestron, fixed boom, etc) rig so the main can weathercock regardless of the wind angle and the main sheet is only altering the angle of incidence, not tensioning the leech. A wand similar to the foil wand on a moth can be set to release the sheet at a predetermined angle of heel or pitch. If the point of release is between the boom and the winch, it will not matter how many turns are on the winch, or if someone is standing on the sheet.

This system will be tested on the prototype cargo proa, but variations of it have been successfully used on other harryproas. Whether the advantages of not having to worry about capsize will overcome the disadvantages (many of which are the result of less time and money invested compared to stayed rigs) of the unstayed rig for racing is yet to be seen, but being able to push the boat as hard as the self righting monos, and arriving at the finish rather than being rescued are pretty compelling reasons to give it a try.
What's up with a radial track and using the car control as a fuse, worked perfectly for me over 30 years with nary a scary moment. The boom flies to leeward, top of the main inverts and the boat goes to sleep.
 

munt

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Is it possible that we're still having a constructive conversation..? A couple people have mentioned the relative age of the 40 mono guys vs the multihullers. I was a bit surprised at the age of this year's Worrel 1000 participants. It's certainly true that (at least in California) you rarely see any younger people on a beachcat. Reasons? Kiting, video games, societal decay, gangster rap..? The entire racing scene in Socal seems to average about 70 years old and as with most trends Socal is usually the leader for better or worse. If I was 30-40 years old with lots of time and money and had to pick a boat/fleet for the RdR I'd be awfully tempted to go with the mono 40. I've spent a lot of great time on multis and I'd probly feel kinda guilty but as Boardhead astutely observed there aren't really any comparable multis available. Name a cutting edge, 40 footish ocean racing multi. Obviously, the tri that flipped has to be considered a bit of a failure. Correct me if I'm outta line. And with sincere hopes of not starting a horrible shit fight maybe, just maybe a proa might be the tool??? Oooops!!!
 

r.finn

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I think this picture says a lot about how much safer the Ultims are and why. And that doesn't even show the much shorter relative rig height compared to Jessica Rabbit's. When the Ultim's foils stall they have a huge amount of buoyancy forward and a lower COE to recover with. When Jessica Rabbit, or an ORMA 60 has foil stall, there isn't much keeping them from pitch poling after Archimedes takes over. I was very impressed that he made it as far as he did while leading, honestly. As for slower... he was still leading his class. What's the saying by that F1 driver, "Go as slow as possible to still win the race"?
 

boardhead

Anarchist
"Go as slow as possible to still win the race" I watched Jackie Stewart win at Silverstone and that's exactly what he did - after the hot dogs crashed and broke down he took the checkered flag - didn't even look like he was trying - 'course he was World Champ!

So Jessica Rabbit might do 30 in protected waters but to be quicker than Class 40 in R-du-R you need to average 11.
 

PIL66 - XL2

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Stralya
Short handed ....Multi 40 .. Jess in 5 - 18 kn (No gust over) would be a bit quicker than a new 40 mono..
Fully crewed..... same result
But... with any threat of gust over this, Jess needs to conserve due to threat of capsize. The mono 40 in all other variable conditions has a huge safety margin and is quicker .... Also Jess is built as an all rounder with high mast more forward as opposed to the new Ultims. The new scow 40's are designed and built for certain races and weapons off the breeze.... so it's not a fare comparison really..
And another factor... with TWS around 18's and over, A boat like Jess needs to be hand steered a lot for hi averages because.... 40ft multis in the ocean are just the right length to fit between two waves (wind swell height 1-2 meters) So at sailing at 120-160deg TWA the boat surfs down waves and stuffs into the next where smaller and much longer boats don't. I know as I've pitch poled a 40ft multi. Fuses don't work here down hill... @harryproa solution (Unstayed ) could work in theory but no one has built a race version of this to know... other than Team Phillips, and we know how that ended.
Offshore Multis in this 40 range get to 20-25kn boat speed with little effort and wind but don't really go quicker than that and even getting to that speed is risky...
My boat XL2 is quicker than TP52's in breeze up to 20 but anything over my ass gets a pucker and my wallet slaps me so I back off where they keep pushing.
BTW @boardhead, Jess will maybe touch on 30 but I bet he has only a handful of times... Probably down a wave....
 
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harryproa

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What's up with a radial track and using the car control as a fuse, worked perfectly for me over 30 years with nary a scary moment. The boom flies to leeward, top of the main inverts and the boat goes to sleep.
Nothing wrong with it in theory. But there are very few capsized multis that don't have a curved traveller track or similar, so something is awry.

Did your fuse ever release when you were sailing downwind? ie, the true wind was from well aft of the beam so the main could not invert when the traveller dumped.

Presumably you missed it or forgot, but you did not respond to Peter Bike's request in the Bill Homewood thread.

Pil,
Team Philips falling apart was nothing to do with the rig and everything to do with poor building, lack of time and money. I used to wonder whether, if they had the same budget as the stayed rig cats in The Race how the boat would have fared. And if it had performed as the numbers suggested and finished first, what the state of unstayed rig development would be now.

FOFO, pucker factor, backing off when it gets exciting and reducing sail at night/in squally conditions 'just in case' all cease to be problems if unstayed rigs and wand operated fuses are used. As does the cost and hassle of maintaining, tuning and worrying about the rigging. A no brainer for short handed offshore multi sailing imo.
 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
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Oslo Norway
Jess was leading by just some 70nm when it flipped - the 5 top RdR Multis was modern production cats that are sold as racer/cruisers at 50ft. And one Outremer 62 that got in 2nd - weighing in at 16t. No foiling there. If we compare Jess to the 50 tris - it weight 3,7t the winning T50 was 3,9t. Jess downwind SA was more than the winning T50 - and it flipped downwind. OK the C40 boats where some 15% faster than the cats. If we take IMOCA winner + C40 and divide - we get 12d 16h - compared to Tri50 at 10d 21 h - that is 22% faster. The winning C40 has a "normal" bow.
 

boardhead

Anarchist
Nothing wrong with it in theory. But there are very few capsized multis that don't have a curved traveller track or similar, so something is awry.

Did your fuse ever release when you were sailing downwind? ie, the true wind was from well aft of the beam so the main could not invert when the traveller dumped.

Presumably you missed it or forgot, but you did not respond to Peter Bike's request in the Bill Homewood thread.

Pil,
Team Philips falling apart was nothing to do with the rig and everything to do with poor building, lack of time and money. I used to wonder whether, if they had the same budget as the stayed rig cats in The Race how the boat would have fared. And if it had performed as the numbers suggested and finished first, what the state of unstayed rig development would be now.

FOFO, pucker factor, backing off when it gets exciting and reducing sail at night/in squally conditions 'just in case' all cease to be problems if unstayed rigs and wand operated fuses are used. As does the cost and hassle of maintaining, tuning and worrying about the rigging. A no brainer for short handed offshore multi sailing imo.
Well - that all sounds GREAT - no doubt you will be backing up your amazing wisdom with a crushing win at the next R-du-R.
 

boardhead

Anarchist
Short handed ....Multi 40 .. Jess in 5 - 18 kn (No gust over) would be a bit quicker than a new 40 mono..
Fully crewed..... same result
But... with any threat of gust over this, Jess needs to conserve due to threat of capsize. The mono 40 in all other variable conditions has a huge safety margin and is quicker .... Also Jess is built as an all rounder with high mast more forward as opposed to the new Ultims. The new scow 40's are designed and built for certain races and weapons off the breeze.... so it's not a fare comparison really..
And another factor... with TWS around 18's and over, A boat like Jess needs to be hand steered a lot for hi averages because.... 40ft multis in the ocean are just the right length to fit between two waves (wind swell height 1-2 meters) So at sailing at 120-160deg TWA the boat surfs down waves and stuffs into the next where smaller and much longer boats don't. I know as I've pitch poled a 40ft multi. Fuses don't work here down hill... @harryproa solution (Unstayed ) could work in theory but no one has built a race version of this to know... other than Team Phillips, and we know how that ended.
Offshore Multis in this 40 range get to 20-25kn boat speed with little effort and wind but don't really go quicker than that and even getting to that speed is risky...
My boat XL2 is quicker than TP52's in breeze up to 20 but anything over my ass gets a pucker and my wallet slaps me so I back off where they keep pushing.
BTW @boardhead, Jess will maybe touch on 30 but I bet he has only a handful of times... Probably down a wave....


Short handed ....Multi 40 .. Jess in 5 - 18 kn (No gust over) would be a bit quicker than a new 40 mono..
Fully crewed..... same result
But... with any threat of gust over this, Jess needs to conserve due to threat of capsize. The mono 40 in all other variable conditions has a huge safety margin and is quicker .... Also Jess is built as an all rounder with high mast more forward as opposed to the new Ultims. The new scow 40's are designed and built for certain races and weapons off the breeze.... so it's not a fare comparison really..
And another factor... with TWS around 18's and over, A boat like Jess needs to be hand steered a lot for hi averages because.... 40ft multis in the ocean are just the right length to fit between two waves (wind swell height 1-2 meters) So at sailing at 120-160deg TWA the boat surfs down waves and stuffs into the next where smaller and much longer boats don't. I know as I've pitch poled a 40ft multi. Fuses don't work here down hill... @harryproa solution (Unstayed ) could work in theory but no one has built a race version of this to know... other than Team Phillips, and we know how that ended.
Offshore Multis in this 40 range get to 20-25kn boat speed with little effort and wind but don't really go quicker than that and even getting to that speed is risky...
My boat XL2 is quicker than TP52's in breeze up to 20 but anything over my ass gets a pucker and my wallet slaps me so I back off where they keep pushing.
BTW @boardhead, Jess will maybe touch on 30 but I bet he has only a handful of times... Probably down a wave....

I really don’t know enough about Jess or the latest Class 40 to predict their relative performance only the sad truth in this particular race now and previously when three 40' trimarans started, two capsized (MTC was lost) and the surviver was beat by Class 40 again.
So I agree Jess is more an all rounder while the Class 40 has developed for this event. The trimaran I sailed for thirty years compares with XL2 and Jess - plus and minus in differing conditions - and in need of close attention offshore in breeze for sure.
I assumed that Jess is capable of 30 knots in flat water by virtue of improved lift/drag courtesy of the foils, my old school high buoyancy ama tri tops out at 25 with me driving in a manner that never saw a scary moment inshore or offshore in all those years.
The big, floaty amas (300%) do a fabulous job off the wind, lots of dynamic lift from the under surfaces at speed and massive reserve buoyancy foreword when you need it BUT you won't be getting a smooth upwind ride knifing through chop. I feel the relatively improved stability of broadly spread flotation does reduce the need for crew - their extra weight never paid off.
For this race - which I will never do now - that old school multi of mine would deliver the goods, safely, on the trade wind sleigh ride - which I have done on my smaller tri - but I would have concerns about smashing upwind in a gale west out of Brittany.
So we know the lifting foils on the ORMA trimarans enabled keeping the gas pedal planted off the wind - until they stalled - but that approach on a forter footer may not be relevant.
What say you guys?
 




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