Route du Rhum Multi vs Class40 monos

boardhead

Anarchist
Jess was leading by just some 70nm when it flipped - the 5 top RdR Multis was modern production cats that are sold as racer/cruisers at 50ft. And one Outremer 62 that got in 2nd - weighing in at 16t. No foiling there. If we compare Jess to the 50 tris - it weight 3,7t the winning T50 was 3,9t. Jess downwind SA was more than the winning T50 - and it flipped downwind. OK the C40 boats where some 15% faster than the cats. If we take IMOCA winner + C40 and divide - we get 12d 16h - compared to Tri50 at 10d 21 h - that is 22% faster. The winning C40 has a "normal" bow.
So I screwed up not seeing that Jess was out front - just saw the bigger cats leading - yes, a sterling effort ended sadly and the story would have been very different had she stayed shiny side up.
You are right in that the 3.7 ton weight is not great but the complexity of foils adds weight with mixed benefits.
For this race the T50's are filling the retired ORMA spot and are very much state of the art, thank goodness, for the multi banner!
Good spot that the winning Class 40 had a "normal" bow.
 

SailingTips.Ca

Feigns Knowledge
823
370
Victoria, BC
The Ultimes seem to have much longer bows compared to their rig size whereas Jess looks like it could pitchpole with just the mast up in bad conditions.

View attachment 556455
View attachment 556460

So we know the lifting foils on the ORMA trimarans enabled keeping the gas pedal planted off the wind - until they stalled - but that approach on a forter footer may not be relevant.
What say you guys?
Saw an interesting talk with multihull designer Francois Perus not too long ago.

He confirmed that the Ultime approach of putting as much boat in front of the mast as possible is the latest thinking in terms of pitchpole avoidance.

To that end, he moved the mast and beams as far aft as possible when he designed the Corsair 880, within the practical limits of creating a boat that people would actually still buy.

Maybe somebody needs to design/build a 40-footer with this in mind?
 

Florian

New member
ima-image-41507.jpg

The winning c40 is a 2022 Lombard and has quite a full bow...
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
725
226
QLD Australia
One of the problems of using curved dagger boards for lift is they are in the wrong place for downwind work. I installed them in my cat well forward of the mast for the specific task of lifting the bow up. They make the boat behave as if it has another 2 m of bow. The result is a far more stable boat that never nosedives.
I wish I had put my mast further back as well but we run a fair bit of rake.
 

harryproa

Anarchist
924
160
Well - that all sounds GREAT - no doubt you will be backing up your amazing wisdom with a crushing win at the next R-du-R.
It's a common sense solution to an obvious problem rather than "amazing wisdom". If the eased main hitting the shrouds is causing pitchpoles, removing the shrouds is a better solution than sailing underpowered or 'puckered' when it gets fresh. Especially with all the other unstayed mast benefits.

I won't be in the next R-du-R as I'm a bit busy trying to do something constructive about remote maritime village access and climate change (building a 3 ton 24m/80' Harryproa with unstayed masts). But there is a 20m/66' Harryproa cruiser being built on an island north of the Arctic Circle in Norway which may be ready in time. I doubt he will win, but I'm nearly certain he will not capsize.
 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
1,375
120
Oslo Norway
It's a common sense solution to an obvious problem rather than "amazing wisdom". If the eased main hitting the shrouds is causing pitchpoles, removing the shrouds is a better solution than sailing underpowered or 'puckered' when it gets fresh. Especially with all the other unstayed mast benefits.

I won't be in the next R-du-R as I'm a bit busy trying to do something constructive about remote maritime village access and climate change (building a 3 ton 24m/80' Harryproa with unstayed masts). But there is a 20m/66' Harryproa cruiser being built on an island north of the Arctic Circle in Norway which may be ready in time. I doubt he will win, but I'm nearly certain he will not capsize.
We tried to get the builder of the proa in Tromsø to talk about the project at the Norw. Multiclub - but he didnt reply - what is the status there? Site not updated for 1,5 year...
 

Rantifarian

Rantifarian
It's a common sense solution to an obvious problem rather than "amazing wisdom". If the eased main hitting the shrouds is causing pitchpoles, removing the shrouds is a better solution than sailing underpowered or 'puckered' when it gets fresh. Especially with all the other unstayed mast benefits.

I won't be in the next R-du-R as I'm a bit busy trying to do something constructive about remote maritime village access and climate change (building a 3 ton 24m/80' Harryproa with unstayed masts). But there is a 20m/66' Harryproa cruiser being built on an island north of the Arctic Circle in Norway which may be ready in time. I doubt he will win, but I'm nearly certain he will not capsize.
I'm sure you will get right on it after you finish the bucket list project
 

Florian

New member
In case anybody cares, this is how much volume is allowed according the c40 rules. I think al the new boats are at the max or very close.

213.01 – Geometry of the hull From 150mm under the sheer, any point vertically below must be closer to the centreline than the point immediately above, no matter which section between the transom and the section 4 meters behind the bow. The maximum width 2000 mm aft of the forward most point used to determine Lh, shall not exceed 3150 mm.
class40.JPG

213.02 – Bow volume The maximum width 200 mm aft of the forwardmost point used to determine Lh shall not exceed 450 mm. Viewed from above, there can be no inverted curve in the sheer. Such that when viewed from above, the sheer between the bow and max beam: - Shall not feature any concavity, - The angle between the tangent to the sheer and the centreline of the boat can only decrease. The line formed by the vertical projection on the horizontal plane of the widest point of each section of the hull shall not present an inverted curve and is subject to the same rules as the sheer line.
 

harryproa

Anarchist
924
160
We tried to get the builder of the proa in Tromsø to talk about the project at the Norw. Multiclub - but he didnt reply - what is the status there? Site not updated for 1,5 year...
Assuming we are talking about the same boat (the Harryproa is a fair way south of Tromso), progress is being made, albeit only in summer. There is a build blog at http://harryproa.com/?p=726. I will tell him you called, but he is in Fiji for your summer helping with the prototype cargo proa so won't be back til March next year. Later if I can persuade him to stay. ;-)

Another builder who would be worth a presentation is building a C50 in southern Sweden, closer to Oslo than the 20m builder. He is doing a superb job, will probably end up selling components. If you are interested, let me know your email address and I will forward it to him.

Rantifarian,
Bucket List was not about proving the boat. It was just a bigger version of Elementarry which worked very well. BL was about seeing if there was interest in a low cost, fast, safe, easily assembled and sailed boat, 4 of which could be loaded into a container and sent anywhere in the world. There wasn't, so I dropped the idea. If you want to give me a hard time for my lack of follow through, you could chose from the following:
 

mpenman

Member
289
315
Pompano Beach
Let's stay on point and see if we "Multihull Anarchists" can learn something here.
The question was boat for boat - 40' vs 40' on this particular race which is generally viewed as the Ultimate for the Class 40.

I agree that foils changed much - apparently beneficially for lead slingers, not so much for multihull - the sister ship of the 1978 winner killed the 2020 state of the arter!

Hull shapes - huge benefit for the mono's again but what of the Multi's?

The fact that gazillion dollar hundred feet plus foiling multihulls perform amazingly is wonderful but the triple down appears almost detrimental to multi's mere mortals can afford.
Appreciate you busting my chops here.

Mono's now have the foils and noses to punch through the waves. The multi's got really, really, really skinny as well as foils. They're almost not sailing but flying, both of them.

No bones about it, the dollar winner per nautical mile is without doubt the class 40's (unimarans)

I think what we all know and can learn is that the inherent stability of a mono in crappy conditions is far superior to a multihull (especially the two legged version) and that the mono can be sailed far more aggressively than a multi with regards to the amount of canvas. Their risk is a broach, the multi an upside down event leaving nothing but a trail of tears.

So in the trickle down effect when we compare a 40 mono vs a 40 cat that are in use for private ownership it still boils down to the time spent on anchor. Let's agree that it's over 90% of the time.

On anchor cats win every single time. Foil or no foil.

I think solo, in the southern ocean, I would prefer a mono.

What is also important is that speed is important in both racing and cruising.

I just beat a nice little northerly here that is gonna blow nicely with some following seas. At 8knts I would still be out there, but at 11, I'm anchored, drinking, and having my tea and biscuits........or rum ;)
 

munt

Super Anarchist
1,327
324
The belt
As far as I can tell the mono 40s aren't foil assisted..? I believe the kite foilers are light years ahead of everybody else when it comes to sailing efficiency, speed and fun. If and when somebody figures out how to apply their techniques to boats it will be a quantum leap forward as the mast is the root cause of so many problems. Whaddya think about that?
 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
1,375
120
Oslo Norway
As far as I can tell the mono 40s aren't foil assisted..? I believe the kite foilers are light years ahead of everybody else when it comes to sailing efficiency, speed and fun. If and when somebody figures out how to apply their techniques to boats it will be a quantum leap forward as the mast is the root cause of so many problems. Whaddya think about that?

Yes - I think the endgame for foilers are a Moth system - similar as Rave used - if you get 4 points in the water two rudders and two foils that lift and can give negative lift when needed - and make these foils dynamic in shape size and angle of attack the foiling can be optimised for light and heavy winds - and ride over bigger waves. Then for downwind add a kite.
 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
1,375
120
Oslo Norway
Appreciate you busting my chops here.

Mono's now have the foils and noses to punch through the waves. The multi's got really, really, really skinny as well as foils. They're almost not sailing but flying, both of them.

No bones about it, the dollar winner per nautical mile is without doubt the class 40's (unimarans)

I think what we all know and can learn is that the inherent stability of a mono in crappy conditions is far superior to a multihull (especially the two legged version) and that the mono can be sailed far more aggressively than a multi with regards to the amount of canvas. Their risk is a broach, the multi an upside down event leaving nothing but a trail of tears.

So in the trickle down effect when we compare a 40 mono vs a 40 cat that are in use for private ownership it still boils down to the time spent on anchor. Let's agree that it's over 90% of the time.

On anchor cats win every single time. Foil or no foil.

I think solo, in the southern ocean, I would prefer a mono.

What is also important is that speed is important in both racing and cruising.

I just beat a nice little northerly here that is gonna blow nicely with some following seas. At 8knts I would still be out there, but at 11, I'm anchored, drinking, and having my tea and biscuits........or rum ;)

ft for ft - is one thing but the "value for money" will be basic for most sailors; the plump mono can give more volume pr/ft/$ - and I think foils can be used as stabilisators both sailing and at anchor - so the mono will get closer to a cat in comfort. But I also think that a plump bow mono will not sail that good in moderate conditions - it really need to be pushed hard to get an advantage over a multi - and normal sailors dont do that. Then its the layout - the bridgedeck cats are close to perfection with their large useful areal for indoor or outdoor with a view when sailing/anchoring - then the separate 4 cabins with heads in the hulls. And better comfort sail/anchor.
 

mpenman

Member
289
315
Pompano Beach
As far as I can tell the mono 40s aren't foil assisted..?
You are correct, my fault in not noting that. They are still wicked fast.
I believe the kite foilers are light years ahead of everybody else when it comes to sailing efficiency, speed and fun. If and when somebody figures out how to apply their techniques to boats it will be a quantum leap forward as the mast is the root cause of so many problems. Whaddya think about that?
My damn foil when I bail is like a boomerang, wants to come right back at me, seems to like my head.
BUT, goes upwind like it's on rails, with no damage to the knees.
 

munt

Super Anarchist
1,327
324
The belt
If I would have imagined 20 years ago what the kite foilers can do nowadays... I'm guessing some combination of kites, foils, sensors and computers will have sailing "vessels" doing some equally astonishing things 20 years from now. The ultims are closer to planes than boats. If there's no giant pole sticking up from the middle of the boat the chance of a multi flipping is cut waaaaay down. Of course, skipping across big waves at 50 mph will pose another set of problems and then there's the issue of what happens when (not if) the foil hits something or the kite strings slice something or somebody in half. By then they'll probably use some kind of quantum transport system to defy time and space anyway. The RdR will start tomorrow and they'll finish yesterday.
 




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