Route du Rhum Multi vs Class40 monos

[[email protected]]

If I would have imagined 20 years ago what the kite foilers can do nowadays... I'm guessing some combination of kites, foils, sensors and computers will have sailing "vessels" doing some equally astonishing things 20 years from now. The ultims are closer to planes than boats. If there's no giant pole sticking up from the middle of the boat the chance of a multi flipping is cut waaaaay down. Of course, skipping across big waves at 50 mph will pose another set of problems and then there's the issue of what happens when (not if) the foil hits something or the kite strings slice something or somebody in half. By then they'll probably use some kind of quantum transport system to defy time and space anyway. The RdR will start tomorrow and they'll finish yesterday.

Yves Parlier is recycling his 16yo cat along those lines (pardon the pun).
https://www.multihulls-world.com/ne...gation-for-yves-parlier-s-former-hydraplaneur

 

[boardhead]

Yves Parlier is recycling his 16yo cat along those lines (pardon the pun).
https://www.multihulls-world.com/ne...gation-for-yves-parlier-s-former-hydraplaneur

With all due respect this project is largely irrelevant to the subject, focusing on a vastly different objective - it’s a sailboat and that’s about the only similarity.

So our state of the art multihull (cos we are multihull addicts here - yes?) to beat these pesky lead slinging wobblies, has to be 40’ long, wind driven with a solo pilot and those are about the only constraints.

There is no 40’ multihull class and in recent editions of the event the designs that did show up have demonstrated stability shortcomings at competitive speeds but they were not purpose designed. Unless there is some incentive to create a suitable multihull the embarrassment will continue and we multihull nuts must concede we are yesterdays news at 40’ length.

As Florian pointed out the newer Class 40 are close to the max hull/bow volume allowed by their self imposed rules - rules that prevent the designers from venturing into a scow or even twin (catamaran) bow form!

The R-du-R was created as an alternative to the OSTAR after that race imposed size limitations - for 1980.
It’s amazing how 40’ boats, considered huge in the beginning, are now the babies in the fleet - perhaps the incredible performance of the Ultimes have made them irrelevant. The 50’ multihull class grew out of private ownership participation with excellent results - state of the art 50’ trimaran beats state of the art 60’ mono!

For now the 40’ multi vs the 40’ mono Offshore Race is an Old vs New contest. F40 was great but the Greed fo Speed developed inshore boats.

 

[[email protected]]

With all due respect this project is largely irrelevant to the subject, focusing on a vastly different objective - it’s a sailboat and that’s about the only similarity.

So our state of the art multihull (cos we are multihull addicts here - yes?) to beat these pesky lead slinging wobblies, has to be 40’ long, wind driven with a solo pilot and those are about the only constraints.

There is no 40’ multihull class and in recent editions of the event the designs that did show up have demonstrated stability shortcomings at competitive speeds but they were not purpose designed. Unless there is some incentive to create a suitable multihull the embarrassment will continue and we multihull nuts must concede we are yesterdays news at 40’ length.

As Florian pointed out the newer Class 40 are close to the max hull/bow volume allowed by their self imposed rules - rules that prevent the designers from venturing into a scow or even twin (catamaran) bow form!

The R-du-R was created as an alternative to the OSTAR after that race imposed size limitations - for 1980.
It’s amazing how 40’ boats, considered huge in the beginning, are now the babies in the fleet - perhaps the incredible performance of the Ultimes have made them irrelevant. The 50’ multihull class grew out of private ownership participation with excellent results - state of the art 50’ trimaran beats state of the art 60’ mono!

For now the 40’ multi vs the 40’ mono Offshore Race is an Old vs New contest. F40 was great but the Greed fo Speed developed inshore bo

With all due respect this project is largely irrelevant to the subject, focusing on a vastly different objective - it’s a sailboat and that’s about the only similarity.

So our state of the art multihull (cos we are multihull addicts here - yes?) to beat these pesky lead slinging wobblies, has to be 40’ long, wind driven with a solo pilot and those are about the only constraints.

There is no 40’ multihull class and in recent editions of the event the designs that did show up have demonstrated stability shortcomings at competitive speeds but they were not purpose designed. Unless there is some incentive to create a suitable multihull the embarrassment will continue and we multihull nuts must concede we are yesterdays news at 40’ length.

As Florian pointed out the newer Class 40 are close to the max hull/bow volume allowed by their self imposed rules - rules that prevent the designers from venturing into a scow or even twin (catamaran) bow form!

The R-du-R was created as an alternative to the OSTAR after that race imposed size limitations - for 1980.
It’s amazing how 40’ boats, considered huge in the beginning, are now the babies in the fleet - perhaps the incredible performance of the Ultimes have made them irrelevant. The 50’ multihull class grew out of private ownership participation with excellent results - state of the art 50’ trimaran beats state of the art 60’ mono!

For now the 40’ multi vs the 40’ mono Offshore Race is an Old vs New contest. F40 was great but the Greed fo Speed developed inshore boats.

My post was purely a reply to Munt's post. Everyone loves a little drift
But I do think that the next big step in multihull performance will come from a rig that generates lift in a similar way to Sailrocket - one of these days I'll read "The 40 Knot Sailboat" (1963) Bernard Smith.

 

[Lykke]

But I do think that the next big step in multihull performance will come from a rig that generates lift in a similar way to Sailrocket - one of these days I'll read "The 40 Knot Sailboat" (1963) Bernard Smith.

That is, a canting mast…



I keep saying that $ is the only “box rule” that matters. It’s possible that this particular evolution step started with an F40 trimaran. Then people realized that the lowest cost performance/safety addition is to extend the bows 10ft, and so Multi50 became the next step. Say, if you have a bowsprit, you already have the LOA with all its docking costs. So why not have the buoyancy there instead.

In other words, Multi50s are the new F40s. A 40ft multi now would be a 30-footer of old, with bows added.

 

[boardhead]

Pretty sure the 50's started with private owners wanting ORMA thrills but not the expense, they certainly grew in popularity as the ORMA's declined.

No need to pay docking on a sprit, they can easily be made to demount in minutes and adding 25% to the length of a forty footer seeking lift and buoyancy is crazy.

The question was still 40 vs 40 and the monohulls found different hull forms to deliver the lateral and diagonal stability to go faster - setting the appropriate hull form way to leeward and leaving the lead at home has to be faster - surely!

That ama hull form has to be suitable for a forty footer - not a 50, 60, 70 or 115 footer. It probably also needs to do the job without the weight, complexity and cavitation issues of foils which are more successful on bigger craft, offshore.

 

[harryproa]

With all due respect this project is largely irrelevant to the subject, focusing on a vastly different objective - it’s a sailboat and that’s about the only similarity.

So our state of the art multihull (cos we are multihull addicts here - yes?)

According to this thread, the problem with racing multis short handed is fear of falling over, and the (correct) solution is to reduce sail and slow down. There's been 2 suggestions to overcome this:
1) A reliable fuse that worked upwind and down. The only reliable fuse suggested is one that works with an unstayed mast (post #37).
2) Kites which remove the heeling and pitching problem altogether. (Post #60).
Apparently these are too radical to even discuss for 'multihull addicts' who are worried about becoming 'yesterdays news' because they can't/wont look at todays solutions.

No heeling, rig, battens, cars, tracks or extras required, only 3 winches and a couple of blocks, lighter sail cloth, lighter hulls and narrower boats plus the ability to generate apparent wind by flying the kite through the air as well as the boat through the water are hugely powerful incentives for kite boats.
I've been playing with them for ~25 years with amazing innovators like Peter Lynn and Dave Culp and we are not much closer to solving the launch/recovery/power surge/safety problems for offshore sized boats than we were back then, although the Parlier solution is a step in the right direction. We have a couple of his kites, they work well, are easy(ish) and safe(ish) to handle but are not as powerful as long line, free flying kites of the same area.

 

[SeaGul]

2) Kites which remove the heeling and pitching problem altogether. (Post #60).

...I think that was in post 57 actually!!!

 

[munt]

Proa!

 

[Kenny Dumas]

Remove the Class 40 rule against concave surfaces and the scow turns into a hard deck cat with enough camber and volume in the house to be self righting It would be very interesting at 30’ also. Just be very strict about self righting. Maybe mandate a minimum bulb weight and depth.

 

[boardhead]

According to this thread, the problem with racing multis short handed is fear of falling over, and the (correct) solution is to reduce sail and slow down. There's been 2 suggestions to overcome this:
1) A reliable fuse that worked upwind and down. The only reliable fuse suggested is one that works with an unstayed mast (post #37).
2) Kites which remove the heeling and pitching problem altogether. (Post #60).
Apparently these are too radical to even discuss for 'multihull addicts' who are worried about becoming 'yesterdays news' because they can't/wont look at todays solutions.

No heeling, rig, battens, cars, tracks or extras required, only 3 winches and a couple of blocks, lighter sail cloth, lighter hulls and narrower boats plus the ability to generate apparent wind by flying the kite through the air as well as the boat through the water are hugely powerful incentives for kite boats.
I've been playing with them for ~25 years with amazing innovators like Peter Lynn and Dave Culp and we are not much closer to solving the launch/recovery/power surge/safety problems for offshore sized boats than we were back then, although the Parlier solution is a step in the right direction. We have a couple of his kites, they work well, are easy(ish) and safe(ish) to handle but are not as powerful as long line, free flying kites of the same area.

If you say so!

 

[boardhead]

Remove the Class 40 rule against concave surfaces and the scow turns into a hard deck cat with enough camber and volume in the house to be self righting It would be very interesting at 30’ also. Just be very strict about self righting. Maybe mandate a minimum bulb weight and depth.

Mike Henderson sailed keel ballasted catamarans back in the 60's. I have been unable to find it but had a picture of one sailing at probably eighty degrees heel!
I do NOT see this as either progress for Class 40 or the means of providing a 40' multihull to beat the best of Class 40 but the lateral thinking is good.

 

[Kenny Dumas]

I searched for Mike Henderson, pretty interesting, thanks

ballasted cat of old

Hi Outside the box, Thanx, sure I would like to get more info. Really a shame the molds are gone. He's an interesting fellow. I would appreicate...

www.boatdesign.net

 

[munt]

One interesting thing about the land proa in the vid is how tiny the sail is. I think they've recently gone over 120 mph...? Pretty cool.

 

[Sidecar]

Proa!

You noticed! The world record is 202.9 km/hr.

 

[munt]

That's really cool!

 

[r.finn]

Something that isn't being discussed here is how much better autopilots are now than even ten years ago. It allows the Class 40's to be pushed much closer to 100% than a 40' trimaran can do safely. In the past it would be much easier to average higher speeds on a multihull of similar length, with everyone sailing well below their polars. Also, the Class 40 fleet is stacked with Figaro talent who really had to put the throttle down to get a result. I don't think there is a lot of mystery to this years RdR results.

 

[boardhead]

I searched for Mike Henderson, pretty interesting, thanks

ballasted cat of old

Hi Outside the box, Thanx, sure I would like to get more info. Really a shame the molds are gone. He's an interesting fellow. I would appreicate...

www.boatdesign.net

Hey Kenny, Thanks for your research! I have a bunch of old AYRS publications but apparently mislaid the Golden Miller article.
Back then there was a much more open minded approach to sailboat development - while lacking the materials of construction and techniques to realize their ideas there was a lot of intelligent thought and stimulating theory. The picture does look like eight degrees heel - always nice to recall without exaggeration!

 

[harryproa]

Back then there was a much more open minded approach to sailboat development - while lacking the materials of construction and techniques to realize their ideas there was a lot of intelligent thought and stimulating theory.

How times change. These days an open minded approach to development, thought (intelligent or not) and stimulating theory get met with a sarcastic one line dismissal and/or a pile on of personal abuse.

Proa!

These "addicted to the 80's" guys can't bear to discuss unstayed masts or kites, no way would they understand all the advantages of proas! ;-). On the other thread boardhead claims to have sailed on one, but for some reason won't tell us anything about it.

Lifting the windward hull at 220 kph (the record is 122) is an impressive bit of boat design/sailing.

 

[boardhead]

So not getting into a lot of proa discussion because in my experience a purpose designed trimaran is the tool to reliably beat the Class 40 LENGTH for LENGTH - the subject of this thread.
Unstayed masts lack the geometric stability to deploy and support a sailplan with the power and adjustability to get the job done.
I have sailed on a Pacific proa, double handed in challenging conditions in Mounts Bay, Cornwall with the owner who went on build and circumnavigate in a 45' catamaran, which I raced against in boat breaking conditions before he left.
I raced against a 50' Atlantic proa in the 1980 Chrystal Trophy and beat the stuff out of it in my 31' trimaran, over 400 miles offshore, we came second,, they were a DNF.
Saw Cheers before, during and after the 1968 OSTAR and had a lengthy conversation with Tom Follett some years later. So looked, saw, researched, thought about it and dismissed as of no personal interest for my intended use.
If it works for you GREAT - ENJOY!
On this specific thread it's also a dead end in my opinion.

 

[Kenny Dumas]

It seems self evident that a ballasted cat would be faster than a scow, way more comfortable (and fast) to weather, and with a well rounded house of sufficient volume could be self righting. Why not?