Route du Rhum Multi vs Class40 monos

[harryproa]

Munt,
I appreciate your niceness and I'm glad you like the boats, but you are wrong.
An unblurred (not sure why it deteriorated, if anyone has a clear version, I'd like to see it) copy of this video was posted 15 years ago and many times since. It shows an unstayed masted Harryproa in more breeze than any of the Sidecar videos I've seen.
I am not saying it proves anything beyond the boat's ability to sail at windspeed under main and jib in 10 and 15 knots (5:15) of breeze, the ability of an unstayed mast to flex in a gust and the lack of deck gear a self vanging rig requires, just that it has not attracted any discussion on multihull unstayed rigs (or the advantages of Harryproas, but let's not go there), but plenty of personal attacks.
Around the same time, a grossly overloaded 12m/40' Harryproa with unstayed mast was sailed across the Tasman by a novice crew. They broke a ring frame and weathered 45 knots. Again, no boat or rig discussion.
Over a period of several years Rick Willoughby (Australian version of Tom Speer) thoroughly analysed, tested, video'ed and published results of an unstayed rigged 18m/60' proa including wind, boat speed and tracks, tacking angles and leeway, a more comprehensive analysis than for any other proa that I know of.
I've been sailing, racing and busting Harryproas for 25 years so that I was confident about what I was selling plans for. There are a couple of SA'ers who used to collect pics of my failures. Maybe they will post them.

There is also this video of TP going gang busters from 22 years ago. Several threads, but no discussion of the rig, or how easy it would be to depower. Someone with no apparent knowledge of boats or rigs always posts pics of the completely unrelated bow falling off and the thread ends.

The latest posts by Foiled Again, Sailing Tips and Lykke and the Marsaudon video (main and traveller in hand when it's fresh) support earlier ones by your 'extremely experienced sailors' that stayed rigs are the root cause of the reasons multis are being creamed by monos in solo offshore races.

The ability to dump the sheet so the boat drifts, with the rig weathercocked makes reefing a quick and simple exercise. No steering, no winching down the sail, no shrouds to cause pitchpoles and no angle of death where heading up or bearing off are both likely to be catastrophic.

Include a fuse that dumps the sheet when the hull lifts and the "can't/won't/don't sail it hard in a breeze" syndrome disappears.

The 'let's stay in the '80's crowd' simply refuse to discuss this while wondering why the monos are beating the multis offshore. The ostrich mentality towards new ideas of people who think they are at the bleeding edge of non foiling multihull sailing is quite peculiar.

Btw, bearing off works fine in daylight in a little boat, but you need to have been woken at 3 am by a 30 knot rain squall while broad reaching in a multi offshore (cruising or racing) to appreciate that bearing away down the waves and reefing without gybing may (or may not) be the correct move, but it is definitely scary and hard work. Doing it single handed even more so. If that squall builds to 40 and/or there is a lee shore and/or something jams or breaks, it becomes terrifying.
Good seamanship might have you sailing under reduced sail so that this scenario is not a problem, but bumping along at <5 knots every night instead of cruising at >10 because one night in 100 a rain squall might hit makes for boring, slow passages and lost races.

It's so much safer and easier with a self vanging, unstayed rig. And safer again if the sheet is fused.

I would appreciate yours, Foiled Again, Sailing Tips, Lykke, Ryan (especially) and other's views on this (unstayed masts and fuses, not Harryproas), in relation to safe, fast, solo offshore sailing in multis.

 

[munt]

I would buy one. A favorite boat of mine was Cat-to-Fold, designed and built by an unsung genius. His masts were incredibly cool and easy to use. So next time I'm building an Ultim you'll be in charge of the rig. Can I go back to watching Ronaldo crying again?

 

[foiledagain]

Although I like the idea of unstayed rotating masts on a catamaran because it would make it easier to depower off the wind, the practical trade offs dont seem to be worth it for me. An unstayed rig will be heavier, more expensive, very hard to get enough burry in a cat unless you go biplane which is even more expensive and heavy, cant use masthead sails, have minimum forestay tension if you even have a forestay. Depowering the main is only a small part of why it is harder to push a multihull to its potential offshore compared to a scowy monohull. And adding weight aloft ultimately would make the risk of burrying a bow/pitching inertia worse. My guess is an unstayed rig would make a multihull slower overall not faster. But would love to be proved wrong with a proper Harry Proa in an offshore race or another Team Philips Ultime to prove this wrong.
Think a biplane rig could be an asset for a fast cruising mom and pop catamaran. Although it might not be faster it could be a great rig as it could be easier to work shorthanded with more safety factor in cruise mode. I would like to see more of those sailing.

 

[Lykke]

So I watched the Marsaudon promo video.


A lot of sensible things said. Made me regret not having a curved traveller track a little more. The waves did not look 4m, maybe 2m, but the winds were probably 30ish. Maybe they did not video during the more hairy conditions. A little ironic how effusive everyone was about these boats being unconditionally safe, including one guy who since then capsized his, with loss of life. At 3-4 TS50s capsized they match the track record of CW A55/57s. In the latter case I always thought it was the inside helm and corresponding lack of situational awareness. Don’t have a theory on TS50s. I love all of these cats, don’t get me wrong.

 

[longy]

I believe the TS capsizes were mostly during racing. One (?) on a delivery. CW capsizes - no racers?

 

[[email protected]]

Although I like the idea of unstayed rotating masts on a catamaran because it would make it easier to depower off the wind, the practical trade offs dont seem to be worth it for me. An unstayed rig will be heavier, more expensive, very hard to get enough burry in a cat unless you go biplane which is even more expensive and heavy, cant use masthead sails, have minimum forestay tension if you even have a forestay. Depowering the main is only a small part of why it is harder to push a multihull to its potential offshore compared to a scowy monohull. And adding weight aloft ultimately would make the risk of burrying a bow/pitching inertia worse. My guess is an unstayed rig would make a multihull slower overall not faster. But would love to be proved wrong with a proper Harry Proa in an offshore race or another Team Philips Ultime to prove this wrong.
Think a biplane rig could be an asset for a fast cruising mom and pop catamaran. Although it might not be faster it could be a great rig as it could be easier to work shorthanded with more safety factor in cruise mode. I would like to see more of those sailing.

Everyone here is probably aware of the biplane CW70, possibly the highest budget freestanding rigged multihull since Team Phillips. By all accounts (that I'm aware of) she's fulfilled the design brief expectations, but top level racing wasn't on the list.

 

[bushsailor]

Well when cruising in the trades we rarely use a mainsail in the first place.
Just a furling code 0. We can then run deeper can easily manage the sail, completely depower it by dumping the sheet etc etc. Much easier all round.

 

[boardhead]

Yeah, I also watched the video a couple times and didn't see anything educational about reefing shorthanded downwind, offshore - like actually doing it!
Anyway, in my book a 50' cat is HUGE and given that my "little" Saint Francis 44 is rock solid stable, offshore and I reef the 900 sq ft mainsail singlehandedly with the autopilot steering without rounding up and without a rotating mast that big cat - with more speed/lower apparent wind for a given sea state - should be a cinch!

Back on track we were looking for a more stable, fast, FORTY foot multi to show the 40' lead stingers the way home in the R-du-R and you can't show up in a freestanding rigged 70' proa cos IT AIN'T 40' LONG!
So in the multihull game it's all about putting an easily driven hull form out on a serious righting arm with lift and buoyancy reserves for the trades downwind sleigh ride after you flogged that platform out of the western approaches to the English channel - in November.
A lot of you guys out there own or owned, sail or sailed some hot shit, offshore - far offshore - what would you do now to advance those rides with this task in hand?

The question was posed by the new owner of a hot 46' tri surveying the results of the 2022 and recent R-du-R results.

 

[boardhead]

Well when cruising in the trades we rarely use a mainsail in the first place.
Just a furling code 0. We can then run deeper can easily manage the sail, completely depower it by dumping the sheet etc etc. Much easier all round.

But slow!

 

[munt]

The latest, most expensive and fastest tech is in the Ultims, so you just pop out a 40 foot version of that and you should be good to go, right?

 

[longy]

No. Scale doesn't translate down the advantages of the Ultim's size

 

[munt]

Explain..?

 

[boardhead]

The waves are three times bigger relative to the Ultim's size, in average trade wind chop the big, foil borne boats fly over the crests while the forty footer is on a procession of surfing down the faces and clambering over the back of waves.

 

[mpenman]

At 3-4 TS50s capsized they match the track record of CW A55/57s. In the latter case I always thought it was the inside helm and corresponding lack of situational awareness. Don’t have a theory on TS50s. I love all of these cats, don’t get me wrong.

Two 57's capsized. First was user error, plain and simple. Second was a water spout/tornado type activity. The second boat was sailed by Charles Nethersole, someone whom I respect and who can drive a boat very well, especially around a race course. He's sailed a lot of miles. They had two reefs in the main and a reef in the staysail. That's a boatload (pun unintentional) of reef's. You would need a lot of wind to capsize that sail plan in regular conditions. It's one of the reasons I have so much more respect for oncoming lows now, almost prefer to motor if they're approaching at night.

On our boat you can put a reef in on any point of sail. We use the reef line as a downhaul for the main. Tug on that, even with pressure and the sail is coming down. It's why we put the third reef on the boat during deliveries.

The other thing to think about if running directly downwind is to center the main to put a reef in. Gotta be going dead downwind.

I still think, and I believe in the above video, that relieving pressure in the headsails gives the most benefit.

Offshore, short handed, we're always a few knots slower at night because we over reef. Sleep way better that way.

 

[bushsailor]

But slow!

Not much slower maybe 1kn average if the destination is dead downwind due to deeper angles.
Set the auto pilot at 170twa and sit back. With the main up you have to sail at around 155TWA to stop the heady collapsing.
Racing is a different story though.
I would love to do single handed racing in a multihull but the no insurance thing is too much of a risk.

 

[harryproa]

Although I like the idea of unstayed rotating masts on a catamaran because it would make it easier to depower off the wind,

Thanks, not just for your comments, but your openness to new (actually quite old) ideas.

the practical trade offs dont seem to be worth it for me. An unstayed rig will be heavier, more expensive, very hard to get enough burry in a cat unless you go biplane which is even more expensive and heavy,

I agree that taking a race boat and plonking an unstayed mast in it would not be as fast. But designing a cat to make optimum use of the unstayed rig could be.
The unstayed carbon/glass mast in the video is 18m/60' long, weighs 120kgs/264 lbs, would be 100 kgs/220 lbs if it was all carbon without the hounds reinforcing.
The unstayed rig weight savings come from the reduction in gear and extra strengthening required: no fore beam, striker, tramp or prodder, nor the high freeboard to make them viable. No traveller, headsail winches, furlers, extras, sheets, chain plates and their bulkheads. Modern cat hulls have to withstand huge loads pulling the bow and stern up. Without these loads, the hulls could be built lighter and smaller.

The video mast is on a 50'ter with 18 tonne/metre righting moment, about the same as a fast 12m/40' race cat (say Pil's XL2) and weighs about 250 kgs incl the sails and boom. Pil, (or anyone with a 12m, 3 tonne/ton cat): what does the mast, boom, rigging, sails, forebeam, striker, prodder and traveller weigh on XL2? A best guess will do for the ones that are unknown.
....................
The additional cost of the materials in an unstayed mast is trivial. The effort of building it is similar to building a stayed one: more material to apply, but less finicky as there are no point loads or holes above the boom. So the tube cost is similar.

The fit out cost for the stayed mast boat is way higher. All the gear etc mentioned above vs 2 plastic bearings for the unstayed rig.

An unstayed rig on a small, light offshore boat will almost certainly have a lower cog than a stayed one of the same height. No spreaders, shrouds, hounds fittings or halyard locks.

A cat with no cabin between the hulls could use a biplane rig. Maybe 200 kgs/440 lbs extra weight on a 12m/40'ter. Better would be a single telescoping mast mounted in one hull, the same thinking that Shuttleworth, Hughes and others use to justify a single dagger board in one hull. Conservative types should not think too hard about this option, it leads to all sorts of improvements. ;-).

A cabin cat (not what I would use for racing, but seems to be the flavour of the day) would have a couple of kgs of tow wrapped around the mast on the cabin top, no unreinforced windows or hatches close to it and another couple around the heel bearing. The weight of this is trivial. You'd move the board)(s) aft or the front of the cabin and the mast forward with this set up.

cant use masthead sails, have minimum forestay tension if you even have a forestay.

True. Extras are possible (in the light), tight headstays aren't. Instead of either, my preference is taller masts (more wind up high in the light), ideally telescoping, which is dead easy with unstayed masts and ~10% heavier.
Would this offset the occasional benefits of huge headsails? Maybe not when everyone was fresh, but after 2 weeks solo sailing near the edge?

Depowering the main is only a small part of why it is harder to push a multihull to its potential offshore compared to a scowy monohull.

Interesting, thanks. What other parts are there?

And adding weight aloft ultimately would make the risk of burrying a bow/pitching inertia worse. My guess is an unstayed rig would make a multihull slower overall not faster. But would love to be proved wrong with a proper Harry Proa in an offshore race or another Team Philips Ultime to prove this wrong.

Me too. I could build a 12m race Harryproa in a couple of months, but have too much on in Fiji to prep and campaign it. We are learning a lot of race applicable things on the 24m/80' cargo proa. Despite solid glass hulls and carrying an 8.5m/28' solid glass tender, the boat weighs less than 3 tonnes/tons in sailing trim, would be a lot less if it did not have to carry 13 tonnes/tons of freight. Once it has proved the concept of sailing freight to and from remote villages (maybe early next year), it would be fun to see how it goes in a race. I'll let you know the time and place. ;-)

Think a biplane rig could be an asset for a fast cruising mom and pop catamaran. Although it might not be faster it could be a great rig as it could be easier to work shorthanded with more safety factor in cruise mode. I would like to see more of those sailing.

Could not agree more. We have provided masts and design/build help for several. It is amazing how many cruising multihulls allow themselves to be talked into lunatic race options that make sailing harder and more stressful. Not just stayed rigs, but swept back spreaders, daggerboards and fixed rudders for example.

 

[Lykke]

On our boat you can put a reef in on any point of sail. We use the reef line as a downhaul for the main. Tug on that, even with pressure and the sail is coming down. It's why we put the third reef on the boat during deliveries.

The other thing to think about if running directly downwind is to center the main to put a reef in. Gotta be going dead downwind.

This may be a little too nuanced for a forum, but the issue I found is this:
I have a single line reefing setup. The tension of the tack is much lower than on the clew. So as you start winching the reef line, the tack comes down easily to keep the halyard tight, while the clew always loosens up. This has the effect of re-powering the centered main downwind. In theory this means that the halyard should not be eased until the leach is tight again. In practice I haven’t been able to complete a downwind reefing with a centered main. Need to try more, in lighter winds. All attempts thus far have been out of necessity.

 

[2flit]

This may be a little too nuanced for a forum, but the issue I found is this:
I have a single line reefing setup. The tension of the tack is much lower than on the clew. So as you start winching the reef line, the tack comes down easily to keep the halyard tight, while the clew always loosens up. This has the effect of re-powering the centered main downwind. In theory this means that the halyard should not be eased until the leach is tight again. In practice I haven’t been able to complete a downwind reefing with a centered main. Need to try more, in lighter winds. All attempts thus far have been out of necessity.

I would be concerned>>> that if you tension the luff before the tack is bar tight.... Then you risk ripping one of the slider car attachments from the sail (the ones that are not reefing tack reinforced.... or stretching the sail material in this area?

Picture below is of a hand-stitched repair of this sort off damage....

 

[mpenman]

This may be a little too nuanced for a forum, but the issue I found is this:
I have a single line reefing setup. The tension of the tack is much lower than on the clew. So as you start winching the reef line, the tack comes down easily to keep the halyard tight, while the clew always loosens up. This has the effect of re-powering the centered main downwind. In theory this means that the halyard should not be eased until the leach is tight again. In practice I haven’t been able to complete a downwind reefing with a centered main. Need to try more, in lighter winds. All attempts thus far have been out of necessity.

@Lykke I normally don't need to center the main unless I'm taking out the main, normally when the winds are non existent and you're motoring to stop the dang flopping, and you want to raise the main to turn of the noise. Doing it in stronger winds is also a factor of sea state. Hopefully if the wind is directly aft and strong, then the sea state is mirrored.

On our boat we can take in a reef in about 30-45 seconds, so we do it very quickly. I release tension on both the tack and the clew. I have my reef lines marked in three places. One to let me know I'm about 2 feet away from my final reef point, one to let me know I'm about a foot away and one that is the final reef point. My jammers are in the forward section of my boom by the gooseneck. Once I start reefing, I'm easing the halyard whilst winching (electric on the reef winch) the reef on high speed. My tack strops are different for each reef as my stack gets higher with each reef point. Between reef points 2 and 3 I put the tack strop on and get tension and then tension the clew to my final reef point.

I think that the key to this all is getting it done very quickly and with as minimal 'real' pressure in the sail. I'm not sure that it's the best way, but it has worked for me.

In a perfect world I've done most of this prior to the arrival of some crazy winds.......sometimes the wind gods acquiesce, but the other 50% of the time they let me know who's boss.

@2flit , that's some impressive hand stitching. I don't get that type of stitching with a dang machine!!!

 

[SailingTips.Ca]

@Lykke Here's a video of my reefing setup which works pretty well on our F-82R and I also used with great success on my previous 12M monohull: