Route du Rhum Multi vs Class40 monos
- Thread starter Lykke
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SeaGul
Super Anarchist
Because the difference 40-105ft is much bigger than 40-60ft?
In fact, using some very high-level math skills that you wouldn't understand I have determined that a Mini is about 1/3rd of an Imoca and a 40 foot tri is about 1/3rd of an Ultim. Take a look at the newest Minis, they are perfect, miniature Imocas, foils and all. So now that I've offered mathematical proof that my theory is correct where are all you naysayers? Come on..! I dare ye!
Florian
New member
There are some mini's with foils, but most are without and the winner is mostly a non foiling mini. In the imoca on the other hand the non foilers are way back. I think the mini isn't as stable as the imoca due to size and the foil angle in waves is all over the place.
Because of the narrow hulls there is not a lot of space in a racing multi, so I guess the multi 50 fills the gap and not enough interest for a 40ft or 30 for that matter. I find it a shame the open 30 isn't more popular, the big boats are to expensive without sponsor and outside of France that is difficult.
Because of the narrow hulls there is not a lot of space in a racing multi, so I guess the multi 50 fills the gap and not enough interest for a 40ft or 30 for that matter. I find it a shame the open 30 isn't more popular, the big boats are to expensive without sponsor and outside of France that is difficult.
SeaGul
Super Anarchist
My mistake. Back to what I said before; the Tri 50 are the one to measure against - they are faster than the C40 and the IMOCA - and modern - with top sailors.
garland823
New member
- 35
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You're still talking about a 38 foot difference (Mini vs. IMOCA) compared to 65 foot difference. 100+ feet of waterline may just open up some different options that aren't available for much smaller boats.
mathystuff
Super Anarchist
- 1,161
- 761
If only you'd know.
My likewisely amazing linguistic skills have me questioning the meaning of the above conundrum. "If only you'd know??????"
Does this imply that I might conditionally know something in the future? Are you a time-traveller of some sort? Should I buy Bitcoin?
Does this imply that I might conditionally know something in the future? Are you a time-traveller of some sort? Should I buy Bitcoin?
harryproa
Anarchist
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Stick to doing it in lighter winds. In any sort of breeze, unless the helmsman is good, it will almost certainly result in a snafu for the reason you state. The higher the winds, the worse it gets.
To reef an unstayed rig on any point of sail, any wind speed or wave height, you dump the sheet, the sail weathercocks and you drift slowly. No need to steer, nothing flogging, no spray, no stress. Flick the halyard to release the lock (unstayed halyard locks are dead simple and cost next to nothing) and it slides down to the next one. Tension the tack (low loads, the sail is pointing head to wind) and the clew (ditto, plus the boom can be lifted up to meet the sail. Sheet on and go sailing. At any stage in this process, you can go below and make a cuppa and wait for the rain to stop.
I admire your single minded approach, but according to everybody who has posted on this thread (and anyone who has thought about it), you are barking up the wrong tree. 40' multis don't "need to be more easily driven, have higher righting moment or more buoyancy". All these are close to optimum on the ocean racing cats and tris and have been for decades. Compare relevant pictures and specs of the 50' tris in the RdR with Verbatim (designed and built for the 2 handed Round Aus race in 1988) to see what I mean. A modern rig on the original Verbatim and it would be competitive with most 40' performance multis. As would the original XL2 (catamaran), designed for the same race. Both were high stress and effort boats when sailed solo.
Start with the problem, which is allowing multis to be pushed hard without capsizing even when the skipper is tired or asleep.
The solution is a rig which completely depowers, automatically, regardless of what the crew is doing. An unstayed rig and wand fuse is the only suggestion to achieve this.
Then apply your experience and knowledge to making this work on a cat or tri.
An unstayed rig does not carry foresails, so is underpowered. Making the mast telescope resolves this, in spades.
The design spiral then starts turning towards a lighter/cheaper boat and a smaller rig. No deck gear apart from a small winch, no forebeam, striker, tramp or high bows; no traveller and the huge global loads a tight forestay and roachy main require; the beams in bending instead of compression so the boat can be wider and easier to fly a hull, fewer in water foils and make them kick up to reduce weight, lost time and races. Not only faster, but a whole lot cheaper to build, operate and maintain.
.......................................
No one suggested a 70' proa. A 40' proa would do the job. Weigh less than a tonne, with crew and gear in a small ww hull and 9-10m/30-33' beam (not a problem on a 12m/40' boat which doesn't tack). One winch, no extras. Self vanging main on telescoping mast, 2 adjustable depth kick up rudders at 25% and 75% of the length, no daggerboards. Sailed from inside the ww hull so the crew stays dry and warm. A lot in common with Cheers back in '68. Exit the Channel in a gale with a 6m/20' high mast and 18 sq m/200sq' of sail, then hoist it to 40'/40 sq m and 60'/60 sq m as the conditions get easier.
With a float fuse to dump the sail if the ww hull flies more than 3m above the water, you would not only arrive ahead of the monos, but you would be the least tired of all the crews. At one quarter or less the cost.
According to the posters in this thread, you should be asking the guys who have capsized. I capsized an 11m/37' race cat by pushing too hard when tired and leading our class in the '82 Round Britain race. Spent 11 hours in the Nth Atlantic freezing my arse off, then watched my boat get destroyed (amusing story for another time) as 'a hazard to navigation'. The solution then, and now, is simple. Back off and lose or have something automatic and idiot proof that dumps the sheet when capsize is imminent. Idiot proof means it works when the skipper is asleep, the winch has an override and the autopilot has just failed.
Maybe ask him to give me a call, or at least read this thread. ;-). Otherwise, suggest he checks his safety gear, tries to obtain insurance and gets his shore team to talk to the guys who retrieved Jess and all the cats that have capsized recently. Or prepares himself to finish behind half the mono fleet.
boardhead
Anarchist
OK Rob, now you have kidnapped this discussion with you mythological racing proa success story and insistence that you have all the answers I guess we will just have to accept that we are all clueless and wasted our efforts on dead end projects.
Bottom line is why bother to compete when you can win by endlessly repeating a fairy story - ever considered politics?
Bottom line is why bother to compete when you can win by endlessly repeating a fairy story - ever considered politics?
harryproa
Anarchist
- 934
- 172
Sorry , I thought you wanted to discuss how a 40' multi could win the RdR. Didn't realise you were just looking for an opportunity to display your sarcastic wit.
You mentioned the 70' proa, erroneously, so I corrected you.
Nobody said you had wasted your time, although they did imply you were behind the times when they all said the solution was being able to push harder, not go faster.
I suggested a way to do this, thinking that perhaps someone would like to know how it could be achieved or discuss it's merits. They do, but not publicly on this forum where people are scared to comment in case the 'experts' shoot them down or send them threatening emails.
You and your ilk are peculiar. You won't discuss any ideas that are at all different to what you have on your boats, bluster, get personal, state that you are 'done responding' (post 84), then keep coming back with more of the same. It's much easier just to put me on ignore.
You mentioned the 70' proa, erroneously, so I corrected you.
Nobody said you had wasted your time, although they did imply you were behind the times when they all said the solution was being able to push harder, not go faster.
I suggested a way to do this, thinking that perhaps someone would like to know how it could be achieved or discuss it's merits. They do, but not publicly on this forum where people are scared to comment in case the 'experts' shoot them down or send them threatening emails.
You and your ilk are peculiar. You won't discuss any ideas that are at all different to what you have on your boats, bluster, get personal, state that you are 'done responding' (post 84), then keep coming back with more of the same. It's much easier just to put me on ignore.
Rantifarian
Rantifarian
Get your hand off it Rob. You abandoned the 40' design you were working on when it was a half completed prototype and a few cad models. If it was such a clear world beater, finish it and sell it. There were people interested in the concept, but no-one is buying a 40' concept with big unanswered questions about the implementation of your ideas.
You have previously dismissed the final details of designs as unimportant, but Julian bethwaites 89er thread is an amazing example of how important a refined design is.
You have previously dismissed the final details of designs as unimportant, but Julian bethwaites 89er thread is an amazing example of how important a refined design is.
harryproa
Anarchist
- 934
- 172
Bucket List was a concept to see if people were interested in a boat that could be be packed 4 to a container, shipped anywhere and raced. There was near zero interest in the concept and not a lot more in the boat, so I learnt what I could from it and then used the parts to investigate other ideas. My money, my time, my decision when to pull the plug.
I couldn't agree more about the importance of refining a design. The Harryproa cruisers are an example of this. The boats I build for myself, to see what works and what doesn't, not so much.
SeaGul
Super Anarchist
The average speed of the winner C40 was some less than 12,5kn - outsailed distance 4200nm... it really think a updated 40 multi with top skipper could match that. The TRI50 have average of 16kn. Ultim 26kn ans Imoca 14,8kn.
Fun fact in 2002 a ladysailed IMOCA60 almost took Line honours against the ORMA60 tris only 6hrs diff. after 13 days. From 2006 when the big tris started they cut time almost in half. The IMOCO60 has improver like 15% since 2006 to now. The C40 has improved about 30% and the Tri50 less than 10%. The Ultim is 13%+ faster than 2006.
Fun fact in 2002 a ladysailed IMOCA60 almost took Line honours against the ORMA60 tris only 6hrs diff. after 13 days. From 2006 when the big tris started they cut time almost in half. The IMOCO60 has improver like 15% since 2006 to now. The C40 has improved about 30% and the Tri50 less than 10%. The Ultim is 13%+ faster than 2006.
boardhead
Anarchist
Interesting numbers. The Class 40 shows the biggest gain - in this specific race - to my mind as a consequence of optimizing the ability to safely drive hard and fast down the trade wind sleigh ride. For various reasons that class also suffered the highest DNF percentage so that pace is not without it's consequences.
No 40' multihulls developed specifically for short handed reaching offshore were entered.
I wanted to encourage some input from contributors here who have experienced the joy of driving hard offshore and the fear when approaching and exceeding the limits as to their thoughts on how to raise those limits.
I designed and built a multi - a trimaran - to allow me to do just that, thirty five years ago - surely a relic by modern standards! That boat is equipped with huge amas, over 300% flotation, light ship which I believe is unique - on a forty footer.
Having 100% buoyancy foreword of the mast, on a 21' righting arm, with an easily driven, flared, lifting hull form facilitated my enjoying those wonderful sleigh rides for thirty years with my wife and kids aboard - I never stuffed that boat.
Bullfrog was one of the designs that inspired me - along with Ian and Kathy's experiences on Twiggy. I sailed with Tom Bandoni on Biscuits Cantreau on a spirited reach offshore where she demonstrated her unsuitability for that task. Taking off on a hard pressing reach when Brian Thompson, handling the spinnaker sheet, turned to me and asked me to let him know when I wanted him to blow it when Skateaway stuffed the bow - I told him to make it fast on the self tailer and join us to weather. Later when I double handed Spirit - which Brian had sailed very extensively offshore - I understood his concerns. Bringing Zephyr, the Antrim 40, south across the Gulf Stream in a brisk north westerly and being convinced there was water in the leeward ama, staying on the helm fearing my crew (double handed again) might roll her over - the ama was dry but a hugely experienced helm would subsequently have her roll over in the same waters and conditions Brian experienced on Skateaway.
So my design criteria were not drawn out of a hat or just theory - I paid attention to what I experienced and put my ideas to the test Mr harryproa.
I have drawings for Skateaway and full size frames that easily assemble the molds in a weekend so if anybody out there wants to build a development to go beat those Class 40's let me know - I will donate the plans, frames and guidance - but you had better be for real! It's a formidable task but so is sailing the Route du Rhum - I never did it, there were other goals. Of course the flawless thirty one year old boat is still out there owned by a true enthusiast if you want to check out and confirm my experiences.
Russell Brown
Super Anarchist
A few simple questions Rob:
Has one of your Harry proas ever crossed an ocean?
Has a Harry proa ever competed in a race that any of us has heard about?
Is there video of a Harry proa sailing in fresh ocean conditions, showing good speed upwind and good steering downwind?
I think the answer to these questions is no (even though you will write a long diatribe about how it's me that's wrong), yet you continue to flog this dead horse decade after decade. Why?
boardhead
Anarchist
From the guy responsible for the most successful blue water proa EVER!
SeaGul
Super Anarchist
Jess from 2011 has the mast close to center lenghtwise - the winning O50 has the mast a lot more aft, as the Ultims. In a race like RdR where reaching is dominant is that of c a way to make a tri more suitable for this race - and also move the foils further forward. Mast can also be canted and logged during sailing - if rules say so. A new boat should also be lighter; the O50 has boats that weight less than Jess. The volume of the amas could easy be more fore as Skateway. When average speed is 12,5 on a C40 - the speed under lighter winds will also play an important role.
