Route du Rhum Multi vs Class40 monos

[Russell Brown]

From the guy responsible for the most successful blue water proa EVER!

The volume of critical diatribe from Rob about my boats (over the last 25 years) is staggering. I've never criticized his Harry proa's, only asked for proof that his boats work.
I have a polite, one page view of his proa's (obviously from my perspective) that I could post here.
I'd rather Rob just tones down his hard-sell and stops trying to convince the world that he's got something better without first proving it.

 

[Kenny Dumas]

I’m more interested in racing in a vessel that is self righting. G32 active style isn’t good enough. It needs ballast and or buoyancy to float right side up.

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

Jess from 2011 has the mast close to center lenghtwise - the winning O50 has the mast a lot more aft, as the Ultims. In a race like RdR where reaching is dominant is that of c a way to make a tri more suitable for this race - and also move the foils further forward. Mast can also be canted and logged during sailing - if rules say so. A new boat should also be lighter; the O50 has boats that weight less than Jess. The volume of the amas could easy be more fore as Skateway. When average speed is 12,5 on a C40 - the speed under lighter winds will also play an important role.

Good point on mast position
Boats like mine that have had a capsize are older designs with a rig and boards forward.... XL2 is now a damn sight better due to extended noses and re positioning of the boards plus more rake
If jess was build today for the RDR the rig be be further aft
@harryproa ...... you are more delusional every year..... and won't be wrong... sad really

 

[2flit]

Sorry , I thought you wanted to discuss how a 40' multi could win the RdR. Didn't realise you were just looking for an opportunity to display your sarcastic wit.

You mentioned the 70' proa, erroneously, so I corrected you.

Nobody said you had wasted your time, although they did imply you were behind the times when they all said the solution was being able to push harder, not go faster.
I suggested a way to do this, thinking that perhaps someone would like to know how it could be achieved or discuss it's merits. They do, but not publicly on this forum where people are scared to comment in case the 'experts' shoot them down or send them threatening emails.

You and your ilk are peculiar. You won't discuss any ideas that are at all different to what you have on your boats, bluster, get personal, state that you are 'done responding' (post 84), then keep coming back with more of the same. It's much easier just to put me on ignore.

so... I have put you on ignore. A very good suggestion coming from you

 

[boardhead]

Good point on mast position
Boats like mine that have had a capsize are older designs with a rig and boards forward.... XL2 is now a damn sight better due to extended noses and re positioning of the boards plus more rake
If jess was build today for the RDR the rig be be further aft

This is the kind of feedback that fuels development - modify to overcome a known shortcoming, prove the mod works and spread the word.
XL2 now faster and safer - bingo, real progress!

 

[Sidecar]

Good point on mast position
Boats like mine that have had a capsize are older designs with a rig and boards forward.... XL2 is now a damn sight better due to extended noses and re positioning of the boards plus more rake
If jess was build today for the RDR the rig be be further aft
@harryproa ...... you are more delusional every year..... and won't be wrong... sad really

I won’t bore you all with umpteen overlays:

Mast pivots %age aft of LOA, Air Draught %age of LOA:

Farrier F33SRC: 40%, 168%.
Seacart 30: 45%, 187%.
Diam 24: 52%, 168%.
MOD 70: 60%, 136%.

Mighty Merlot looks to be ~ 54%, Dunno.

PS mast rakes:

3 deg, 3 deg, 6 deg, 4 deg respectively.

 

[harryproa]

I’m more interested in racing in a vessel that is self righting. G32 active style isn’t good enough. It needs ballast and or buoyancy to float right side up.

Me too. The '10 minutes to make it' model is crude, but check out .
This self righting doesn't work on cruising Harryproas (unless the lee hull is empty), cats or tris which is why we came up with the 'idiot proof, any point of sail, any wind strength sheet release' which no one here wants to talk about.

@harryproa ...... you are more delusional every year..... and won't be wrong... sad really

Didn't think you could resist, any more than Russ could.
Delusional? I am sitting here in Fiji, all expenses paid incl weekends at Leleuvia resort with an almost ready to be launched 80' 3 tonne proa (ssh, nobody mention this) paid for by Harryproa sales.
The Prime Ministers of Fiji and Tonga, 4 of the top 5 Fiji Government ministers and representatives from all over the Pacific have visited (an hours drive from Suva) to look at the boat, discuss it's potential and ask when they can have one. The project was discussed at COP27 last month. I/it have been filmed for 3 documentaries, with more coming.
I have 2 substantial UNDP grants to fit it out with the best gear available prior to using Blue Bond money ($100 million, not all of it for us) to set up a boat building industry in Fiji building environmentally sensible cargo proas and mini cargo proas.
Next Feb we start spending a substantially bigger grant on a project to recycle most, if not all the uncleaned, unsorted plastic in Fiji into useful materials.
Mid year, another substantial grant kicks in to set up replacing petrol outboards with electric.
There are other projects and grants (coral reef replenishment, mud brick house building, eroded sand replacement, waste handling and biorock) in the pipeline.
If that's 'sad', bring on heart broken!

With all that happening, why am I spending time posting here? It's Xmas party time so no one is working, I have a 2" diameter hole in my ankle so can't work on the boat and I enjoy trying to make people think.

".............Won't be wrong................?" I wish. Not about the advantages of unstayed masts and proas, neither of which you will even discuss, but check out the cargo proa build blog for plenty of examples.

Board head,
Skateaway is obviously a great boat endorsed by lots of famous sailors, which is why it took so long to sell, there have been no others built and you can't away give the plans, frames etc no matter how hard you try. Perhaps this is the market saying maybe there's a better way?

Russ,
Yes, depends what races you have heard about, no. For details see the tens of times I have answered these questions from you in the past 15 years.
It is a long time since I posted anything negative about your boats, and it was always quotes from magazine articles written by your buddies. Why a long time? Because nobody cares. Ryan's voyage was amazing, full credit to him and the boat, but the downsides of it just don't appeal to people interested in building and sailing rather than typing about proas.
The one pager you have been threatening to post for years, but never have? I look forward to seeing it.
Hard sell? I post about boats. You and your mates post about me. The result is increased interest in Harryproas. You stop posting, the interest drops. You know this (or should, it is blatantly obvious), but just can't help yourselves, which amuses the hell out of me.
Your faith in "proof" is misplaced. People build and buy Harryproas because they make sense, are comparatively cheap, safe and easy to build and sail. Readers can figure out for themselves why there isn't a bunch of "proven" Cape Horn rounding, Pacific crossing, record smashing Jzerro's being built.
Cue yet another apology (5th?, 6th?) from you for getting upset and shooting your mouth off without thinking first. You are an excellent boat builder and a consumate seaman, but don't seem able to handle people that upset you. Put me and all the others who piss you off on ignore and enjoy life. Better still, come to Fiji and use your abilities to help make the world a better place.

All 3 of you.
I understand that you don't like me, but you've never made it clear why Harryproas won't do what logic says they do, and more germane to this thread, why unstayed rigs are not a solution to the multis falling over when pushed hard problem. Which still applies even if you move the mast back a couple of feet.

 

[munt]

I always enjoyed breaking up fights (except girl fights). So maybe we could get this on a more positive track? Mr. Harry Proa, any chance you could put up some drawings of your telescoping mast system? I would love to sail a boat with a big, light, bendy unirig. The last place I sailed was extremely gusty and I would have never cleated the main on a flippable multi. Not sure how a sailmaker would deal with the bendyness, but I guess it's doable? I still think there might be some hope down the "biplane cat" road, kinda combines the best of the proa and cat..? The big failures kinda shut down the development but I can envision a Reynolds 33 with 2 tall, bendy masts instead of the giant aluminum telephone pole. Raising and lowering those big boys every time we went under a bridge was a bit nerve-wracking... Sadly, the immense fun of surfing with a massive headsail on the edge of a big crash would be lost.

 

[Dogfish]

Ok I am waiting for the cargo proa to be sailing. The big difference is the massive bow volume of the C40. Wave piercing bow penetrates the back of the wave infront and the deck has to be designed to shed water, otherwise if it's virtually flat it's going to take the bow further down making the situation critical. If the hulls slab sided there is no real increase in bouancy and it's all over. Due to the weight of a mulithull it's pretty hard to move the rig right back and get enough sail area to compete with a C40. So the route taken by the bigger multi's is not a real obtion at 40ft. Dare I say wave piercing bows may not be the solution on small multihulls been pushed downwind. If you know the bow is going to recover you would feel a lot safer, may be out fashion but the conventional bow has a lot going for it. My front beam is also a wing section running at 5 degrees should it get go under hopefully it's going to give a bit of lift and help out not that I am brave enough to try it out ! To compete with the a C40 you need a pretty forgiving design that pretty much looks after it's self. Probably going to look more like a C40 than a one of the larger multis just a thought anyway. Solid brigedeck surface effect ???? lets get imaginative.

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

@harryproa .... if you want to look in the room of mirrors and see what we all see then I will direct you firstly to George Costanza ... he like you believes things that are just not reality but he finds way to justify them and be right.


And next is a fellow named Jeremy DeWitt.... he can also argue to the point where he wears all others down until they just give up.....it doesn't make him right........ YouTube him

I have some parting advise on plastics (which i'm also passionate about) It's important to clean up all existing plastic waste, I agree, but more important is to educate all how to dispose of it in the first place.
Plastic is not the problem, people are.

 

[Fatfukfrank]

People are plastic my friend

 

[boardhead]

Dare I say wave piercing bows may not be the solution on small multihulls been pushed downwind.

Eureka and YES you may!

 

[jmh2002]

1992 Skateaway Racer/cruiser sailboat for sale in North Carolina

www.sailboatlistings.com

Skateaways on the market?

From another thread here (unless I've got my boats mixed up, in which case, apologies): https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/t...partners-needed-for-real.239960/#post-8153127

 

[harryproa]

I always enjoyed breaking up fights (except girl fights). So maybe we could get this on a more positive track? Mr. Harry Proa, any chance you could put up some drawings of your telescoping mast system? I would love to sail a boat with a big, light, bendy unirig. The last place I sailed was extremely gusty and I would have never cleated the main on a flippable multi. Not sure how a sailmaker would deal with the bendyness, but I guess it's doable? I still think there might be some hope down the "biplane cat" road, kinda combines the best of the proa and cat..? The big failures kinda shut down the development but I can envision a Reynolds 33 with 2 tall, bendy masts instead of the giant aluminum telephone pole. Raising and lowering those big boys every time we went under a bridge was a bit nerve-wracking... Sadly, the immense fun of surfing with a massive headsail on the edge of a big crash would be lost.

There's not much to draw. 2,3 or4 untapered tubes of diminishing diameter such that the id of each is slightly (6mm) more than the od of the next one. This allows for bearings and a pull-up line which runs from the bottom of one section up to a sheave at the top of the next section an down to the deck. Pull the string the mast goes up. Lots of details with sail attachments to sort out but nothing insurmountable There is no reason you can't surf with a main only rig.
Sail shape when reefed is a small issue, more than offset by the reduced wind age and weight of the telescoped mast
Biplanes are heavier and more expensive better is one rig mounted in one hull. But like I said be careful because this is the start of a slippery slope to the dark sde 😉

Pil
While you are watching reruns of a 30 year old sit com I am discussing a new industry for Fiji with heads of government, the United Nations development program, Asia development bank, KPMG and sundry Fijian dignitaries

'The problem is people' is just as inane when it's applied to plastic as it is to guns. You maybe passionate about making money from plastic: I just want to clean up the waste and put it to good use

@harryproa .... if you want to look in the room of mirrors and see what we all see then I will direct you firstly to George Costanza ... he like you believes things that are just not reality but he finds way to justify them and be right.


And next is a fellow named Jeremy DeWitt.... he can also argue to the point where he wears all others down until they just give up.....it doesn't make him right........ YouTube him

I have some parting advise on plastics (which i'm also passionate about) It's important to clean up all existing plastic waste, I agree, but more important is to educate all how to dispose of it in the first place.
Plastic is not the problem, people are.

I always enjoyed breaking up fights (except girl fights). So maybe we could get this on a more positive track? Mr. Harry Proa, any chance you could put up some drawings of your telescoping mast system? I would love to sail a boat with a big, light, bendy unirig. The last place I sailed was extremely gusty and I would have never cleated the main on a flippable multi. Not sure how a sailmaker would deal with the bendyness, but I guess it's doable? I still think there might be some hope down the "biplane cat" road, kinda combines the best of the proa and cat..? The big failures kinda shut down the development but I can envision a Reynolds 33 with 2 tall, bendy masts instead of the giant aluminum telephone pole. Raising and lowering those big boys every time we went under a bridge was a bit nerve-wracking... Sadly, the immense fun of surfing with a massive headsail on the edge of a big crash would be lost.

 

[Dogfish]

All I can say to Harryproa is if I were in Fiji splashing the cash I would want that cargo proa sailing by now. We are all watching and waiting for you to deliver what you have promised the people of Fiji who have taken you at your word unlike us lot. Your have all the answers, it should not be a problem for you. I wish you well with your project and hope for the sake of everybody involved you deliver as promised a reliable cheap fast efficient craft.

 

[SeaGul]

Pil
While you are watching reruns of a 30 year old sit com I am discussing a new industry for Fiji with heads of government, the United Nations development program, Asia development bank, KPMG and sundry Fijian dignitaries

Then I would really feel the pressure...

 

[harryproa]

All I can say to Harryproa is if I were in Fiji splashing the cash I would want that cargo proa sailing by now. We are all watching and waiting for you to deliver what you have promised the people of Fiji who have taken you at your word unlike us lot. Your have all the answers, it should not be a problem for you. I wish you well with your project and hope for the sake of everybody involved you deliver as promised a reliable cheap fast efficient craft.

Thanks for the good wishes.
The problem of servicing remote villages has been around for a long time. There have been several solutions by well meaning westerners, usually entailing plywood and/or high maintenance rigs and/or engines, none of which are suitable. The history, problems and failures are well known throughout the Pacific.

The original plan was to spend several years refining and testing the cargo proa and the concept around the Pacific and demonstrating that the current solutions (diesel ships which can't access the villages and unsafe petrol outboard powered skiffs) could be improved on. These solutions are so inadequate that once we showed an alternative that addressed the problems in an island suitable fashion, it was decided to start the 'new industry for Fiji' process while the testing and improving of the prototype was happening. This decision was made by hard headed, experienced business people, not me.

The "cash splash" started 2 weeks ago and is split between testing and fitting out the cargo proa with better equipment than I could afford, enhancing the recycling of plastic for the cargo boxes and setting up pilot classes to build environmentally sensible mini cargo proas and low cost, light weight padding outriggers for women fishers. Before this, all the money and time to get the cargo proa built and shipped here, were mine. FWIW, none of it is refundable via grants, etc.
We were asked to apply for the accelerator grants. They are merit based (we got 2 out of 8) and the expenditure is closely audited. The United Nations Development Program, which handles grants throughout the world, does not make decisions based on promises, delusions or anything except hard data and analysis. The accelerator grant requires the cargo proa to sail 25 miles up the coast, deliver a cargo and return with another cargo. We have 20 months to achieve this. My aspirations are considerably higher.
The environmentally sustainable boat building pilot classes start in February, the first mini cargo proas should be sailing in April. I have paid for the materials to get these under way.
The waste plastic for cargo boxes process has begun, shows promise at small scale. Full size versions will happen in the new year when the welding students return to build the mould/compactor.

I have not "promised" anything to anyone. I spend more time explaining that the cargo proa is a prototype and there will be missteps in the proving process than I do extolling it's virtues, which are self evident to all the people who have looked at the boat with an open mind and an appreciation of the problems.

I have some answers to the problems of hitting things at high speeds, how to drive multis hard without falling over and minimalist boat design, but no way do "I have all the answers" for the cargo proa which is a prototype with some novel solutions to the novel problems remote villagers have. There are good reasons why the problems have not been solved in the past and why what we are proposing should, but may not, work. It is well understood (in Fiji, if not on SA) that innovation is not always successful. This is one of the reasons the boat finish is rough and also why I spend a lot of time with villagers, potential crew and builders, ship operators, MSAF and donors discussing what is required. When a better idea appears, it is no problem to grind off the old one and implement the new.

The other grants have realistic time scales which we should also be able to meet. My willingness to put up the time and money to get a prototype built made a big impression on the UNDP and other organisations. We are adopting a similar process with the other grants:
The plastic recycling application was ho hum until we showed them a metre/40" long section of 60mm/2.3" dia rod made from mixed, uncleaned waste with repeatable mechanical properties. Everyone sat up and asked how much money do we need, when will we be in production and what will we use when all Fiji's waste plastic is recycled?
We have a video of a prototype electric outboard capable of pushing the boat at 6 knots under solar alone.
The Israeli Ambassador gave us a human shit biogas generator/fertiliser producer to test and prove and then assist the manufacturer to solve any problems.
We are building a prototype village suitable glass crusher and a plastic waste consolidator, prior to a grant application to set up a student business building them for all the villages.
etc etc

SeaGul,
There is no "pressure" involved. Everybody does their best, keeps the other players in the loop on progress and setbacks, accepts input from wherever it comes (disappointing on SA, good elsewhere) and works towards the common goal, which is not to make money or promises, but to solve the problems. It is a delightful way to work. What is noticable is the difference between Australia and Fiji when a new idea is proposed. The Aus answer is No; can't be done, won't work, no one has ever done it before, the industry doesn't do it like that, etc, etc. In Fiji the answer is Yes; followed by action and discussion on the best way to solve the problems, with no blame attached to failure or unworkable solutions. Multihull Anarchy is more Aus than Fiji, in my experience.

The Future is Blue - UNDP Ecosystems & Biodiversity

The ocean is facing increasing threats, from old foes and new threats: pollution, unsustainable fishing, habitat loss and degradation, invasive species introductions and climate change.

undp-biodiversity.exposure.co

 

[Dogfish]

Well Harryproa not quite so easy in the real world then what a suprise. Sadly I think you have sucked the life out of the thread in the pocess.

 

[Ravenswing]

This may be a little too nuanced for a forum, but the issue I found is this:
I have a single line reefing setup. The tension of the tack is much lower than on the clew. So as you start winching the reef line, the tack comes down easily to keep the halyard tight, while the clew always loosens up. This has the effect of re-powering the centered main downwind. In theory this means that the halyard should not be eased until the leach is tight again. In practice I haven’t been able to complete a downwind reefing with a centered main. Need to try more, in lighter winds. All attempts thus far have been out of necessity.

Lykke, while single-line worked well on my trailer boats, I’ve separated the tack and clew reefing lines on the ocean boat. Three little dyneema lines, one tied to each tack cringle, led through shared low friction rings, to a cleat next to main halyard winch. Start the reef by easing the halyard, pulling/winching appropriate tack down line. That’s just a few seconds and made fast. Now I can take in the clew as easily as single-line reefing but it’s not fighting / competing with the tack. The sail is momentarily depowered as the halyard as the tack/luff is coming down, and the winching on the clew goes much better than when it’s also including the tack portion. It’s working really well for singlehanding. Just a little devils-advocate there for you

 

[2flit]

Lykke, while single-line worked well on my trailer boats, I’ve separated the tack and clew reefing lines on the ocean boat. Three little dyneema lines, one tied to each tack cringle, led through shared low friction rings, to a cleat next to main halyard winch. Start the reef by easing the halyard, pulling/winching appropriate tack down line. That’s just a few seconds and made fast. Now I can take in the clew as easily as single-line reefing but it’s not fighting / competing with the tack. The sail is momentarily depowered as the halyard as the tack/luff is coming down, and the winching on the clew goes much better than when it’s also including the tack portion. It’s working really well for singlehanding. Just a little devils-advocate there for you

just curious how you are holding the end of the boom up as you lower the halyard on the RW setup?