Rule 18 question at a finish mark

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Facts, not disputed by either party:

1. There was an inside overlap at the Zone

2. The outside leeward boat was luffing up the inside weather boat beyond the compass course to the finish mark

3. The Inside boat was given room at the last minute to squeak between the outside boat and the finish mark.

4, It was a downwind finish, 10-12 Knots of air and waves less than 1 ft.

Rule 18 applies at marks, which includes finish marks, the Definition of Mark-Room is Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her

proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of

the boat required to give mark-room.

Questions, for the people out there that are smarter than I am:

Room to sail to the Mark - does that mean directly to the mark? and not be burdened by rule 11 (Not up, then down at the last second to make the mark) We avoided contact, but it was very close and there was a fair bit of yelling going on for mark room.

Since we were luffed up and could not sail directly to the Mark, would we of had a valid protest under 18.2 and the definition of Mark Room?

Had our spin touched the rigging of the the other boat, would we have been exonerated under rule 14 and 18.5?

Case 70 does not apply, since from the time we were at the Zone until about 30 feet from the mark the outside boat had luffed us up beyond the finish mark and at the last minute bore off to finish.

Had this happened outside the zone, it was OK to luff us up, but once we reached the zone with an overlap we should have been able to sail "to the Mark"...

The only reason we did not pull the flag and protest was it was meaningless in the regatta - it would not have changed the standings overall and nobody wanted to waste drinking time in the protest room. - Next time it may be meaningful and I would like to have some idea of what is proper.

Thanks!

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Post Script:

I did talk, at the bar, to the tactician/coach of the other boat and he did contend that at a finish mark, they were not required to give mark room, just "room to finish"

Thanks

 

Lake Shark

Member
324
0
midwest
There is no "room to finish" in the rules. Mark room applies like it does at A leeward gate as soon as you were in the zone the leeward boat had no rights to luff you. "to the mark" means being able to pass it on the correct side.

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,028
188
London, UK
Diagrams do help. Check out Boat Scenario. It's free. http://boats.sourceforge.net/

RoW rules still apply if 18 applies. So a windward boat must keep clear, but if an inside, windward boat has mark room, outside leeward has to give her: Mark Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her

proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room. Room is defined as: The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

Normally, "room to sail to the mark" is interpreted as a corridor to correct side of the mark from where the boats enter the 3bl zone. Once 18 switches on, you have the right to sail a straight line to the mark. e.g check out http://rrsstudy.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/mark-room-revisited.html and

ISAF Racing Rules Question and Answer ServiceB 005 Q&A 2009-022

Question 1: Is a boat entitled to mark-room allowed to make a tactical approach/tactical rounding (often called "wide in, tight out") of the mark or is boat entitled to mark-room only allowed to a seamanlike approach/rounding?

Answer 1: Mark-room is split into two aspects:

(i) Room to sail to the mark. If the boat entitled to mark-room is the keep-clear boat, then room to sail to the mark is neither room to sail her proper course (if extra room is needed for aproper course approach), nor is it room to make a more tactical rounding If the boat entitledto mark-room has right of way, she is free to sail any course within the limitations of the rulesof Part 2, Section B, and, if it applies, rule 18.4.

(ii) Then, room to sail her proper course while at the mark. A boat may sail her proper coursefrom the time she is at the mark and while she rounds or passes the mark and until she nolonger needs the mark-room. This course would therefore be the one the boat would sail inthe absence of the other boats referred to in the rule.Only an inside right-of-way boat that is entitled to mark-room may make a tactical approach and atactical rounding. However, if the inside right-of-way boat is subject to rule 18.4, then, until shegybes, she may not sail farther from the mark than needed to sail her proper course. Note that atactical rounding may be wider than a proper course rounding.
If you have the right to mark room, but the outside boat does not give you room, while 11 still applies you are exonerated for the breach by 64.1.c When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled another boat to break a rule, rule 64.1(a) does not apply to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,028
188
London, UK
Also 18.5

18.5 Exoneration

When a boat is taking mark-room to which she is entitled, she shall be exonerated

(a) if, as a result of the other boat failing to give her mark-room, she breaks a rule of Section A, or

( B) if, by rounding the mark on her proper course, she breaks a rule of Section A or rule 15 or 16.

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
You didn't touch the mark or the other boat, then they gave you mark room.
+1
No, guys, that is the test sometimes (and sometimes incorrectly) applied to 'room to keep clear' under rules 15 and 16.

Mark-room is different.

See Case 75 and the Q&A that PEd has posted.
Case 75 is not remotely like the situation in the OP.

/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-097262000%201339461230_thumb.png Case 75

/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-099914100%201339461284_thumb.jpg My take on the OP as best I can do without a diagram.

 

Attachments

  • case75.PNG
    case75.PNG
    53.8 KB · Views: 15
  • finish.jpg
    finish.jpg
    25.8 KB · Views: 11
Last edited by a moderator:

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,840
611
Evanston
You didn't touch the mark or the other boat, then they gave you mark room.
+1
No, guys, that is the test sometimes (and sometimes incorrectly) applied to 'room to keep clear' under rules 15 and 16.

Mark-room is different.

See Case 75 and the Q&A that PEd has posted.
Case 75 is not remotely like the situation in the OP.
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.
That action turns off RRS 11, which the RRS do not.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,840
611
Evanston
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.
That action turns off RRS 11, which the RRS do not.
the RRS allows inside to be exonerated for breaking R11 while sailing to the mark.

if mark room includes the right to sail from the edge of the zone directly 'to the mark', then inside is allowed to break R11 and be exonerated for doing so under R18.5(a)

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Katydid

Member
295
2
LIS
You didn't touch the mark or the other boat, then they gave you mark room.
+1
No, guys, that is the test sometimes (and sometimes incorrectly) applied to 'room to keep clear' under rules 15 and 16.

Mark-room is different.

See Case 75 and the Q&A that PEd has posted.
Brass, I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. It seems to me that as johnnysaint says, Case 75 describes a very different situation, the primary difference being that the inside boat is also the ROW boat. As such, she is entitled to a tactical rounding. Ftbinc's boat was not ROW boat, and not entitled to that room, only to mark-room. The Q&A that Ed posted does a great job of describing just that difference, in my view. It says that mark room is two parts; room to sail to the mark (which ftbinc's boat must have had, since they did it), and room to sail her proper course once at the mark (about which please see below)

I must respectfully disagree with you and Ed. While I have great respect for the skills of those involved in the "Look to Windward" blog, I see no mention in the rules or appeals/cases of any "corridor" to the mark inside the zone. In fact, Case 21 makes this point explicitly; it says, "Note that, according to the definition of Mark-Room, an inside overlapped boat that is required to keep clear of the outside boat is not entitled to sail her proper course while sailing to the mark; she is only entitled to sail her proper course after she is at the mark." The definition of Mark-Room, therefore, quite explicitly does not include room to sail "directly to the mark...and not be burdened by Rule 11". Rule 11 is still very much in effect, particularly after 2009's rewrite (which leaves out mention of rules "turning on and off", as you know).

So... ftbinc:

  • If I understand correctly, you were the windward boat, and entitled to mark-room.
  • You were able to sail to the mark (it wasn't easy, apparently, but you made it, and it's not required to be easy, it's required to be possible).
  • You were able to sail past the mark to finish without hitting it, and at a finish mark, as soon as you are "at the mark" you have finished, after which there is no "proper course" (see definition of "proper course"). Therefore, the second part of the definition of "mark-room" never enters into the picture, and there is no part of the incident at which your boat was entitled to sail her "proper course".
  • You hit neither the boat nor the mark.
I still say you got mark room, and there was no foul here. You proved it by making it across the finish line without contact.

Further, any exoneration available through 18.5 relies on the boat entitled to mark room not getting it, and I still maintain she did get it. Therefore, no exoneration for breaking 11 or any other Section A rule.

One other point, though: If you hadn't made it, Case 21 also comments on "existing conditions", saying essentially that big boats in rough conditions require more room to be handled in a seamanlike way. We don't know what size boats you were sailing, so it's hard to make judgements about how maneuverable they are, but at the end of the day, you proved that you had room by successfully taking it. If you hadn't, there might be room for discussion, but you made it, so you had room to make it. The existing wind and sea state conditions you describe are just about perfect, so you wouldn't get any extra consideration for them.

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.
That action turns off RRS 11, which the RRS do not.
the RRS allows inside to be exonerated for breaking R11 while sailing to the mark.

if mark room includes the right to sail from the edge of the zone directly 'to the mark', then inside is allowed to break R11 and be exonerated for doing so under R18.5(a)
That is not what I'm saying!

Nothing in the RRS turns off Rule 11!

Even though entitled to mark room, the windward boat is subject to RRS 11 & must keep clear. There is nothing in the rules that cancel that just because the windward boat is entitled to mark room.

 

Katydid

Member
295
2
LIS
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.
Interesting point, and I see that it seems to say that in the ancillary commentary to Case 75 (and my apologies to Brass and Ed for missing it). However, it seems to me that that interpretation is in direct conflict with the language of Case 21 (and the definition of mark-room), and I wonder how you all would reconcile that conflict...

 
Last edited by a moderator:

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,840
611
Evanston
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.
That action turns off RRS 11, which the RRS do not.
the RRS allows inside to be exonerated for breaking R11 while sailing to the mark.

if mark room includes the right to sail from the edge of the zone directly 'to the mark', then inside is allowed to break R11 and be exonerated for doing so under R18.5(a)
That is not what I'm saying!

Nothing in the RRS turns off Rule 11!

Even though entitled to mark room, the windward boat is subject to RRS 11 & must keep clear. There is nothing in the rules that cancel that just because the windward boat is entitled to mark room.
I dont agree

While inside is taking mark room to which she is entitled she can break R11 and will be exonerated for doing so.,

In which case she does not have to keep clear of the leeward boat.

Yes R11 is still on, but if inside breaks it while taking mark room there is no consequence for breaking R11... and she is therefore allowed to do so with impunity. That's what R18.5(a) says.

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,840
611
Evanston
I think the brass is pointing out this interpretation from case 75

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side. P gave S that room.
In the OPs case the question is did the outside boat give the inside boat that direct corridor to sail from the point she entered the zone to a position close to and alongside the mark.

i.e. it is not sufficient for outside to steer away at the last moment and open up a lane, outside has to allow room for inside to sail 'to the mark', the test that inside got past the mark without touching outside or the mark is a necessary but not sufficient condition to show that outside gave mark room.
Interesting point, and I see that it seems to say that in the ancillary commentary to Case 75 (and my apologies to Brass and Ed for missing it). However, it seems to me that that interpretation is in direct conflict with the language of Case 21 (and the definition of mark-room), and I wonder how you all would reconcile that conflict...
I dont see any conflict here., the only part of case 21 relevant to sailing 'to the mark' is

Note that, according to the definition Mark-Room, an inside overlapped boat that is required to keep clear of the outside boat is not entitled to sail her proper course while sailing to the mark; she is only entitled to sail her proper course after she is at the mark.
however this only says she is not allowed to sail her proper course.... outside is still required to give her room to sail 'to the mark', (a direct route)

i don't see any part of the definition or rule which allows outside (with RoW) to force a boat to sail above her course to the mark.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
I dont agree

While inside is taking mark room to which she is entitled she can break R11 and will be exonerated for doing so.,

In which case she does not have to keep clear of the leeward boat.

Yes R11 is still on, but if inside breaks it while taking mark room there is no consequence for breaking R11... and she is therefore allowed to do so with impunity. That's what R18.5(a) says.
If RRS 11 IS turned off (and there is nowhere in the RRS that states that) - why the need for exhoneration?

Inside is entitled to mark room. If inside passes 30ft from the mark, but in the process touches outside, then she cannot be exhonerated.

There is NOTHING in the rules that says the outside boat shall not sail above her course to the point alongside the finish mark that would allow inside thru without touching anything.

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,840
611
Evanston
I dont agree

While inside is taking mark room to which she is entitled she can break R11 and will be exonerated for doing so.,

In which case she does not have to keep clear of the leeward boat.

Yes R11 is still on, but if inside breaks it while taking mark room there is no consequence for breaking R11... and she is therefore allowed to do so with impunity. That's what R18.5(a) says.
If RRS 11 IS turned off (and there is nowhere in the RRS that states that) - why the need for exhoneration?

Inside is entitled to mark room. If inside passes 30ft from the mark, but in the process touches outside, then she cannot be exhonerated.

There is NOTHING in the rules that says the outside boat shall not sail above her course to the point alongside the finish mark that would allow inside thru without touching anything.
RRS 11 is not turned off. I keep saying this, the need for exoneration is because R11 is on, the ciorcumsnatnce for exoneration include when inside is sailing 'to the mark', outside cannot 'block' (even temporarily) insides route to the mark.

if inside passes 30ft from the mark she is NOT taking mark room to which she is entitled and R18.5 therefore doe not apply, she will not be exonerated.

The RRS defines mark room as room to sail 'to the mark' and room to sail proper course 'at the mark'

What part of the RRS prevents inside from sailing directly 'to the mark' and protesting outside for a breach or R18.2?

If inside does this why would she not get exonerated for her breach of rule 11

The whoel point of the way the rule is written is that in this circumstance if inside sails 'to the mark' and in doing so breaks R11 she gets immediatley exonerated for doiung so...

so yes she does break R11... but there is no consequence to doing so is she was sailing 'to the mark' as she was entitled to do under R18.2.

Outside can sail above her course to the point alongside the finish mark which would allow inside to sail 'to the mark' without touching her or the mark, what she cant do is luff inside above the line which allows inside to sail 'to the mark' .If she does she is not giving her mark room.

 
Last edited by a moderator:




Top