Rule 18 question at a finish mark

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
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I dont agree

While inside is taking mark room to which she is entitled she can break R11 and will be exonerated for doing so.,

In which case she does not have to keep clear of the leeward boat.

Yes R11 is still on, but if inside breaks it while taking mark room there is no consequence for breaking R11... and she is therefore allowed to do so with impunity. That's what R18.5(a) says.
If RRS 11 IS turned off (and there is nowhere in the RRS that states that) - why the need for exhoneration?

Inside is entitled to mark room. If inside passes 30ft from the mark, but in the process touches outside, then she cannot be exhonerated.

There is NOTHING in the rules that says the outside boat shall not sail above her course to the point alongside the finish mark that would allow inside thru without touching anything.
RRS 11 is not turned off. I keep saying this, the need for exoneration is because R11 is on, the ciorcumsnatnce for exoneration include when inside is sailing 'to the mark', outside cannot 'block' (even temporarily) insides route to the mark.

if inside passes 30ft from the mark she is NOT taking mark room to which she is entitled and R18.5 therefore doe not apply, she will not be exonerated.

The RRS defines mark room as room to sail 'to the mark' and room to sail proper course 'at the mark'

What part of the RRS prevents inside from sailing directly 'to the mark' and protesting outside for a breach or R18.2?

If inside does this why would she not get exonerated for her breach of rule 11

The whoel point of the way the rule is written is that in this circumstance if inside sails 'to the mark' and in doing so breaks R11 she gets immediatley exonerated for doiung so...

so yes she does break R11... but there is no consequence to doing so is she was sailing 'to the mark' as she was entitled to do under R18.2.

Outside can sail above her course to the point alongside the finish mark which would allow inside to sail 'to the mark' without touching her or the mark, what she cant do is luff inside above the line which allows inside to sail 'to the mark' .If she does she is not giving her mark room.
FFS! I have NEVER said the inside cannot be exhonerated. I knew that was the case before you even started posting in this thread.

Why do you have to turn something so simple and easy to understand into a convoluted argument?

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,543
681
Boston, MA
nobody's asked how the overlap was established and whether the leeward boat even had rights to sail above their proper course. Regardless, once inside the zone, 18.2 B seems pretty clear that leeward outside has an obligation to allow windward inside room to sail to the mark. Katydid's got a point about proper course shutting off when they get to the mark, but as long as windward inside is overlapped with the mark, she shall be exonerated for breaking a part A rule; that is, just like at the start, once you're overlapped with the committee boat, you can't be forced up into it, you also can't be forced into the finishing mark. If all this luffing was happening outside the zone (and the boat overlaps were established properly) I don't think there'd be any argument about whether the luffing was proper, but inside the zone? only a lawyer would say that "to the mark" meant a collision course with it.

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,853
620
Evanston
FFS! I have NEVER said the inside cannot be exhonerated. I knew that was the case before you even started posting in this thread.

Why do you have to turn something so simple and easy to understand into a convoluted argument?
I try not to, but if I disagree with you, then I try to explain why (and its too exhausting to point out all the things I never said that you decided to tell me I was wrong about)

I said so in my first post, I pointed out a statement from a case might be relevant here.

In my view room to sail to the mark means room to sail directly from the edge of the zone 'to the mark'

I said this pretty simply in my first post, and when you responded I tried to explain why I did not feel R11 was relevant to that.

As for turning something so simple and easy to understand into a convoluted argument I don't think its me that's doing that.

Here is my argument in all its simplicity

Mark room includes room to sail to the mark. This means room to sail from the edge of the zone directly to the mark without having to avoid a right of way boat who owes mark room.

If the RoW forces the inside boat above her course 'to the mark' she is not giving her mark room, even if she subsequently bears away and opens up enough space for inside to get past the mark.

here is a team racing call which supports this argument

call J3

Note in this call A breaks R18 at position 2, because she is not giving X room to sail to the mark.

here is another

Call J2

Mark-room includes room for X to sail to the mark, but because she is sailing below her course to the mark she is taking more room than needed
Note is X was sailing her course to the mark this indicates that she would be taking mark room.

there are other team racing calls which also support this idea.

 
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Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
I still say you got mark room, and there was no foul here. You proved it by making it across the finish line without contact.

Mark room is room to sail to the mark.

Rule 18 begins when either boat enters the zone. At that point, inside is entitled to sail to the mark. (To a position where she can pass it on the correct side.

Outside (ROW) therefore must give that room exactly then. Outside does not have the luxury thereafter to do what she wants and at the last second bear away, and claim she gave mark room.

She did not.

This is simple folks.

DW

 
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Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
Look,

The mark-room rights of 18, and the RoW oppose each other, but do not conflict.

The inside boat is entitled to room to sail to the mark, the moment rule 18 applies. This defines some width to where she can sail. The widest she may sail is the course she needs to sail to the mark, and sail her proper course at the mark.

Opposing those mark-room rights, are the Rights of Way of the outside leeward boat. She must give mark-room so may sail up to a course just prior to failing to give mark-room. Anything below that, and she is fine.

So the opposing nature of these two rules create the outside edge of the infamous 'corridor'.

The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in

the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way.

That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and

alongside the mark on the required side.

(Extract from Case 75)

If either boat oversteps that line, then she may have broken a rule.

If the outside boat sails higher than that edge, she is not giving mark-room and breaks 18. Inside could technically break 11 in the same instance, but shall be exonerated, since she was taking mark-room to which she was entitled. In effect, inside may stand her ground inside that corridor and be immune from penalty (other than rule 14).

If the inside boat sails lower than that edge, she is not taking mark-room to which she is entitled. If she does not keep clear of the leeward boat, she breaks rule 11.

So some summary:

  • Room must be given when rule 18 applies....that is 3 boatlengths (normally).
  • Room is the space needed to sail to a position to pass the mark on the correct side. - i.e. sail to the mark while 18 applies. Hence the corridor concept.
  • The limit of each boat is defined by their obligations (RoW or give mark-room).
  • Rights of way rules always apply, but may have no consequence for a boat taking mark-room.
  • A keep clear boat entitled to mark-room might break a right of way rule, but IF taking room to sail to the mark to which she was entitled, shall be exonerated by 18.5a.
  • A right of way boat entitled to mark-room might break rule 15 or 16, but IF taking room to sail her proper course at the mark to which she was entitled, shall be exonerated by 18.5b.


-------------------------------------------------

In OPs situation, Outside sailed higher than that outer edge of the corridor, when she was meant to be allowing Inside the room to sail to the mark. Outside broke 18.2b.

JohnMB, Brass and Presuming Ed (and me) are right.

Move along...nothing to see here!
tongue.gif


 
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ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Thank you everyone that responded. The conclusions that seem to have been drawn, are identical to the argument that I would have made, if we were to end up in the protest room, making the argument that we were entitled to a corridor to the mark from the edge of the zone to the mark. When the leeward boat did not bear off until 1 boat length from the mark she broke 18.2. If our sail to touched the other boat, we would have broke rule 11 and 14, but we should have been exonerated under rule 18.5 and proved our point that we were not given mark room, to which we were clearly entitled.

Cheers

-p

 

Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
Thank you everyone that responded. The conclusions that seem to have been drawn, are identical to the argument that I would have made, if we were to end up in the protest room, making the argument that we were entitled to a corridor to the mark from the edge of the zone to the mark. When the leeward boat did not bear off until 1 boat length from the mark she broke 18.2. If our sail to touched the other boat, we would have broke rule 11 and 14, but we should have been exonerated under rule 18.5 and proved our point that we were not given mark room, to which we were clearly entitled.

Cheers

-p
Almost.

18.5 exoneration in this case only covers section A. Rule 14 is section B I think.

You always have to avoid contact. In short, if there was any damage and it was found you could have avoided the contact, even though you were owed mark room, you would be penalized and DSQ. If there was no damage, then you would not be penalized for rule 14.

Someone else can explain. I'm off to bed.

Also, the leeward boat broke 18.2 the moment she did not give mark room. That would be about 2.9999 boat lengths from the mark!

Dw

 
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ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Thank you everyone that responded. The conclusions that seem to have been drawn, are identical to the argument that I would have made, if we were to end up in the protest room, making the argument that we were entitled to a corridor to the mark from the edge of the zone to the mark. When the leeward boat did not bear off until 1 boat length from the mark she broke 18.2. If our sail to touched the other boat, we would have broke rule 11 and 14, but we should have been exonerated under rule 18.5 and proved our point that we were not given mark room, to which we were clearly entitled.



Cheers

-p
Almost.

18.5 exoneration in this case only covers section A. Rule 14 is section B I think.

You always have to avoid contact. In short, if there was any damage and it was found you could have avoided the contact, even though you were owed mark room, you would be penalized and DSQ. If there was no damage, then you would not be penalized for rule 14.

Someone else can explain. I'm off to bed.

Also, the leeward boat broke 18.2 the moment she did not give mark room. That would be about 2.9999 boat lengths from the mark!

Dw
I agree with what you have said, my real questions is the definition of Mark Room - and what room to sail to the mark really means - a direct line from the zone to the mark? or can a boat, inside the zone luff up and inside overlapped boat that is entitled to mark room, as long as at the last moment they go down and allow enough room for the windward boat to finish...

-p

 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
1,402
48
Room to sail to the mark - what is the problem here, it means room to sail to the mark. When leeward luffs inside the zone, if the inside boat is no longer sailing to the mark then the outside boat has not given the inside room to sail to the mark.

 

Hobie Anarchy

Super Anarchist
Appeal 105:

In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase "room to sail to the mark" means space to sail in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark. When the mark is abeam of the boat's bow and she is close to it, she has arrived "at" it. While "at" the mark, the boat is entitled to room to sail her proper course.
 

morrisre

Super Anarchist
2,696
2
Here is my argument in all its simplicity

Mark room includes room to sail to the mark. This means room to sail from the edge of the zone directly to the mark without having to avoid a right of way boat who owes mark room.

If the RoW forces the inside boat above her course 'to the mark' she is not giving her mark room, even if she subsequently bears away and opens up enough space for inside to get past the mark.
Not quite. The Q&A and call say:

You are sailing to the mark if you are sailing a course to arrive at the mark. You are at the mark when you are close to it and in a position when you would normally begin to round it.

The definition is of teh space required for a prompt and seaman like maneuver. That is generally accepted to be a straight line or 'a corridor', a P Ed has pointed out.

So basically you are exonerated for RRS11 if you're sailing promptly in a seaman like manner to arrive close to the mark in a position that you would normally round it from AND the give mark-room boat must also give you the space to do so.

In this case yellow fails to give blue space to sail promptly in a seaman like manner to a position close to the mark that she would normally round the mark from and is flicked under RRS18. If blue failed to keep clear while they where in the zone and until they had cleared the finish/finish mark then she would be exonerated.

It's no more complicated than that.

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
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/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-028246600%201339538185_thumb.png

This is how I see it. There is nothing in the rules that say the inside boat has the right to sail a straight line to the mark. Only that the outside boat must give the inside boat room to sail to the mark.

Red has all the room she wants in the blue area to sail to the mark. Blue must give red room to pass the mark without touching the mark or touching blue. Nothing in the rules requires either boat to sail a straight line once they enter the zone.

Nothing in the rules prevents blue from sailing above the mark before she reaches a point where she must give room to red to safely pass the mark.

 

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Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-028246600%201339538185_thumb.png

This is how I see it. There is nothing in the rules that say the inside boat has the right to sail a straight line to the mark. Only that the outside boat must give the inside boat room to sail to the mark.

Red has all the room she wants in the blue area to sail to the mark. Blue must give red room to pass the mark without touching the mark or touching blue. Nothing in the rules requires either boat to sail a straight line once they enter the zone.

Nothing in the rules prevents blue from sailing above the mark before she reaches a point where she must give room to red to safely pass the mark.
Sorry. Js.

To? Short or synonymous with 'towards '?

Seasame Street could get this right.

Draw your pen in a straight line form red to the correct side of the mark. Ask the kids if the pen is going 'to' that point, and they'll all shout, yes!

Then draw your pen in a squigly line (while starting in your blue section). I assure you that they'll be going back and forth from yes to no.

'TO' means to...closing distance..in the direction of...

Only a straight line can be considered continually sailing To the mark.

Dw

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
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/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-028246600%201339538185_thumb.png

This is how I see it. There is nothing in the rules that say the inside boat has the right to sail a straight line to the mark. Only that the outside boat must give the inside boat room to sail to the mark.

Red has all the room she wants in the blue area to sail to the mark. Blue must give red room to pass the mark without touching the mark or touching blue. Nothing in the rules requires either boat to sail a straight line once they enter the zone.

Nothing in the rules prevents blue from sailing above the mark before she reaches a point where she must give room to red to safely pass the mark.
Sorry. Js.

To? Short or synonymous with 'towards '?

Seasame Street could get this right.

Draw your pen in a straight line form red to the correct side of the mark. Ask the kids if the pen is going 'to' that point, and they'll all shout, yes!

Then draw your pen in a squigly line (while starting in your blue section). I assure you that they'll be going back and forth from yes to no.

'TO' means to...closing distance..in the direction of...

Only a straight line can be considered continually sailing To the mark.

Dw
WTF are you on?

/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-087869100%201339541620_thumb.png

"Room to sail TO the mark"

NOT "room to sail DIRECTLY to the mark".

NOT "room to sail in a STRAIGHT LINE to the mark".

NOT "room to sail THE SHORTEST DISTANCE to the mark"

NOT " room to BE CONTINUALLY SAILING to the mark"

 

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Hobie Anarchy

Super Anarchist
to

   [too; unstressed too, tuh]


preposition






1.(used for expressing motion or direction toward a point,person, place, or thing approached and reached, as opposedto from ): They came to the house.






2.(used for expressing direction or motion or direction towardsomething) in the direction of; toward: from north to south.


 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
Your kids go to school .... does that mean they must only go in a straight line?

You go to the supermarket ...... does that mean you must only go in a straight line?

Some of you guys are reading way to much into the rules and applying your interpretations to a set of rules that many people don't fully understand anyway.

For some of you, the rules are more important than the game.

Keep it simple. Cut the bullshit. I'm sure there are plenty who will agree with that.

 
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Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-028246600%201339538185_thumb.png

This is how I see it. There is nothing in the rules that say the inside boat has the right to sail a straight line to the mark. Only that the outside boat must give the inside boat room to sail to the mark.

Red has all the room she wants in the blue area to sail to the mark. Blue must give red room to pass the mark without touching the mark or touching blue. Nothing in the rules requires either boat to sail a straight line once they enter the zone.

Nothing in the rules prevents blue from sailing above the mark before she reaches a point where she must give room to red to safely pass the mark.
Sorry. Js.

To? Short or synonymous with 'towards '?

Seasame Street could get this right.

Draw your pen in a straight line form red to the correct side of the mark. Ask the kids if the pen is going 'to' that point, and they'll all shout, yes!

Then draw your pen in a squigly line (while starting in your blue section). I assure you that they'll be going back and forth from yes to no.

'TO' means to...closing distance..in the direction of...

Only a straight line can be considered continually sailing To the mark.

Dw
WTF are you on?

/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-087869100%201339541620_thumb.png

"Room to sail TO the mark"

NOT "room to sail DIRECTLY to the mark".

NOT "room to sail in a STRAIGHT LINE to the mark".

NOT "room to sail THE SHORTEST DISTANCE to the mark"

NOT " room to BE CONTINUALLY SAILING to the mark"

Mate,

Why do you have to be so aggressive?

I don't know where you were when the change from 2008 to 2009 was, but there has been a document which explained the intention of the rule makers in existance from very early on.

This document, written by Dick Rose, with contributions from Ben Altman, Chris Atkins, Rob Overton and Richard Thompson, clearly states the 2009 rules and the intended functions of each change.

Have a read. You can find it here: http://ebookbrowse.com/comparison-of-old-and-new-section-c-rules-2-pdf-d188931591

...and I've bolded the relevant sentence.

The new definition Mark-Room answers a question that competitors have been

asking for many years. It makes it clear at what time an outside leeward boat with

luffing rights may no longer luff an inside windward boat towards the ‘wrong’

side of a mark. Consider two overlapped boats running on port tack to a leeward

mark to be left to port. After one of the two boats is in the zone, the leeward boat

is obligated by new rule 18.2(b ) to give the windward boat ‘room … to sail to the

mark’ (see the first part of the definition Mark-Room).

 

Inside the zone, if the

outside boat were to luff the windward boat to a course taking her to the wrong

side of the mark, the outside boat would not be giving the windward boat space to

sail to the mark. Therefore, that luff would break new rule 18.2, even if the

outside boat later bears off and lets the inside boat sail to the mark.

 

If such an

outside boat luffs the inside boat towards the wrong side of the mark before either

of them is in the zone, then, provided she complies with rule 16.1 (and, if it

applies, rule 17), the outside leeward boat breaks no rule. Under the old rules,

there was no clearly defined moment at which such a leeward boat could no

longer luff the windward boat towards the wrong side.

We can discuss two perfectly valid interpretations of the word 'TO' ad nauseum. However, when there is a clear statement of which interpretation is intended, then it doesn't it make sense to use that one?

Maybe just reel back the 'WTF's and feet stamping, and try to listen sometimes.

DW

 
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johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
The new definition Mark-Room answers a question that competitors have been

asking for many years. It makes it clear at what time an outside leeward boat with

luffing rights may no longer luff an inside windward boat towards the ‘wrong’

side of a mark. Consider two overlapped boats running on port tack to a leeward

mark to be left to port. After one of the two boats is in the zone, the leeward boat

is obligated by new rule 18.2(b ) to give the windward boat ‘room … to sail to the

mark’ (see the first part of the definition Mark-Room). Inside the zone, if the

outside boat were to luff the windward boat to a course taking her to the wrong

side of the mark, the outside boat would not be giving the windward boat space to

sail to the mark. Therefore, that luff would break new rule 18.2, even if the

outside boat later bears off and lets the inside boat sail to the mark. If such an

outside boat luffs the inside boat towards the wrong side of the mark before either

of them is in the zone, then, provided she complies with rule 16.1 (and, if it

applies, rule 17), the outside leeward boat breaks no rule. Under the old rules,

there was no clearly defined moment at which such a leeward boat could no

longer luff the windward boat towards the wrong side.
So that is a rule in the RRS now is it?

or an interpretation?

 

Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
The new definition Mark-Room answers a question that competitors have been

asking for many years. It makes it clear at what time an outside leeward boat with

luffing rights may no longer luff an inside windward boat towards the ‘wrong’

side of a mark. Consider two overlapped boats running on port tack to a leeward

mark to be left to port. After one of the two boats is in the zone, the leeward boat

is obligated by new rule 18.2(b ) to give the windward boat ‘room … to sail to the

mark’ (see the first part of the definition Mark-Room). Inside the zone, if the

outside boat were to luff the windward boat to a course taking her to the wrong

side of the mark, the outside boat would not be giving the windward boat space to

sail to the mark. Therefore, that luff would break new rule 18.2, even if the

outside boat later bears off and lets the inside boat sail to the mark. If such an

outside boat luffs the inside boat towards the wrong side of the mark before either

of them is in the zone, then, provided she complies with rule 16.1 (and, if it

applies, rule 17), the outside leeward boat breaks no rule. Under the old rules,

there was no clearly defined moment at which such a leeward boat could no

longer luff the windward boat towards the wrong side.
So that is a rule in the RRS now is it?

or an interpretation?
FFS !

GIVE IT UP!

You are just being an argumentative **** now. Put it this way, it's more an authoritative interpretation than yours .

What's wrong with..."Shit, sorry guys. I hadn't seen that before. As you were!"? It's way more endearing.

Dw

 
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