Rule 18 question at a finish mark

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
Look again tomorrow when you've sobered up.
Making friends again turd!

Mabe its you johnny!

Come on you lying retard, man up!
Fuck off you stalker!

This cunt is getting creepy.
Come on cocksucker!

Name these mates!

Sort me out like you threatened, im waiting!

When i find out who they are, mabe they will be mentioned here as well, they will love that!

Man up johnny, your as weak as piss, im ready for you to sort me cunt!

 

johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
Look again tomorrow when you've sobered up.
Making friends again turd!

Mabe its you johnny!

Come on you lying retard, man up!
Fuck off you stalker!

This cunt is getting creepy.
Come on cocksucker!

Name these mates!

Sort me out like you threatened, im waiting!

When i find out who they are, mabe they will be mentioned here as well, they will love that!

Man up johnny, your as weak as piss, im ready for you to sort me cunt!
WOW! We've got a real nutcase here! They warned me about him.

 

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
Look again tomorrow when you've sobered up.
Making friends again turd!

Mabe its you johnny!

Come on you lying retard, man up!
Fuck off you stalker!

This cunt is getting creepy.
Come on cocksucker!

Name these mates!

Sort me out like you threatened, im waiting!

When i find out who they are, mabe they will be mentioned here as well, they will love that!

Man up johnny, your as weak as piss, im ready for you to sort me cunt!
WOW! We've got a real nutcase here! They warned me about him.

So your backing down from your threats and lies now you old fuckstain?

Weak as piss!

Name some of these gossip mothers homo!

Why don't you foreigners take your vulgar foul comments to your own site. No one wants to raed the crap you post.

Oh look, johnny's dad is here as well!

Bite me!

 

Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
JS and Turkey.

You are both letting yourselves down now.

The bigger man will be the one who stands down.

JS, I'm sorry we couldn't resolve this.

I fear that your stance requires a rule book so big it will be even more intimidating.

The case book and rule books are not meant to be dictionaries too.

Had they used the word 'towards' instead, we maybe wouldn't be having this discussion.

However, I don't think it is improper to use a well known synonym of 'towards'.

That really is absolutely it for me on this.

Dw

 

morrisre

Super Anarchist
2,696
2
Submissions 144, 145 & 256 from last year's ISAF annual conference. New definition of mark room for 2013-2016 rules.

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,

(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and

( B) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. However, mark-room does not include room for a boat to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give her mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

New 18.2.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room

(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2( B) applies.

 

( B) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.

 

c ) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2( B) ,

(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;

(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.

However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2( B) ceases to apply.

 

(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.
Seriously concerned about this one. All it does is enable mark traps for team racing (a minority activity) making things dangerous for fleet racing and adds considerably confusion on when a proper course rounding is allowed vs a 'straight to the mark and round from there' rounding that was rightly deemed to need to be added when the zone was increased to 3 lengths (an excellent change).
The last amendment made things simpler and to my mind safer, although more boring. This is about making it more complicated for the sake of retaining racing in it's middle age. A bit like stream train enthusiasts like to see steam trains painted British Rail green rather than their original colour simply because that how they remember them from their child hood.

 

morrisre

Super Anarchist
2,696
2
Johnny, why do you need it if mark-room is being amended to say "room required to leave a mark on its proper side?" notice it doesn't say "round," so it applies at a finishing pin as well. I think the definition closes the door on an outside boat trying to take you to the wrong side of the mark.
This whole thread, AND ALL my posts are NOT about outside boat trying to take you to the wrong side of the mark.

Do you not understand what the thread is about? Have you not read the first few pages posts?

PLEASE post where I wrote anything about outside boat trying to take any boat to the wrong side of the mark.
Yeah, I read the whole fucking thing, including the original poster which was about.. what was it again? oh yeah, being luffed to the wrong side of the mark inside the zone until the last minute. Then there was all this crap in the middle about crazy situations and whether a cigar is just a cigar, and what is the meaning of is.. and meaning.. and to.. and wow, butterflies! Then one of the most sane people ever to make an appearance on SA posts some changes regarding the EXACT SITUATION the OP originally asked about, and some of the finer points of what 'to the mark' does and should mean to any non-certifiable individual.

Your addition does nothing to help the definitions. you're in the zone, man! the zone! I can see not sailing above your proper course before you get there, depending on how the overlap was established, right? there's a rule for that man! once you have established that overlap at the zone, why would proper course even matter to the outside boat? hell, if they're cutting you off and you have rights, they could practically have to gybe away to give you the room that you deserve, and with the definition change everyone knows you can't give em enough room to just sail TO the mark, but to actually pass it on its proper side. I'd love to see a diagram, to scale, of where you think first off that an outside leeward boat can be above its proper course IN THE ZONE AND still giving the inside overlapped boat MARK-ROOM (by the proposed new definition, which removes the ambiguity of the word "to").

are you sure YOU know what this thread's about??
WOW! Put the bottle down bloke before you hurt yourself.

If you have read the thread you certainly haven't understood it.

/monthly_06_2012/post-1322-062898300%201339709607_thumb.png

so by your interpretation...

Green is sailing to mark 1

Red is NOT sailing to mark 2

Yellow is NOT sailing to mark 3
In all 3 they are sailing to the mark. Only in 1 is the maneuver a prompt one. Or to put it another way, only in 1 is the boat maneuvering promptly to take mark-room through out.

 
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morrisre

Super Anarchist
2,696
2
Or to put it another way, only in 1 is the boat in the space it would require if it where maneuvering promptly to take mark-room through out.

That last one is the currently accepted interpretation chosen, in my opinion, because it still gives some ability to lay a mark trap in team racing. You are right in saying that this does not require a straight course. The short hand for the course required is 'a corridor'. One that would not constrain the boat to a straight like but none the less does illustrate the bounds of a space defined by prompt action.

Feeling slightly sorry for PEd here.

Basically he had exactly the same argument with me a while ago on here with me arguing for the direct interpretation and him arguing your position (seem to remember BalticBandit being quite involved too).

At the time there was a division of opinion amongst rule wallers and no conclusive Q&A, case etc. etc. In fact there was a reluctance to give one because the reasonably obvious interpretation of the rules as written, rather than the intention in writing them, was for a direct requirement. Remember that the disciplines that involve the most rigorous application of the rule are match and team racing. For that reason a lot of the guys who have an interest in and the best understanding of the operation of the rules also have an interest in match or team racing. The latter in particular relies on interpretations of the rules to make it interesting that are not necessarily the most obvious or even appropriate for fleet racing.

How ever if often comes across the reason IJ/IUs stick to the communally agreed interpretation of the rules and do not comment publicly where there is no agreed interpretation is that, as well as helping out at the local regatta, they operate at the top level of the game. At that level consistency of decision making is highly important. For that reason they occasionally have to tell a competitor something that they may not personally agree with entirely them selves. It's obvious how that may make it hard for them to get in a discussion about it!

They are listening though. The amendment to suddenly allow an outside boat a proper course rounding as well as a mark-room one if a give mark-room boat becomes overlapped inside her came, I would venture, directly from a case raised here on Sailing Anarchy.

There is now consensus on how this should be interpreted. This one is a done deal.

If you want to get stuck into something how about the rules experts deliberately interpreting 'capable of improving the performance of a boat' to protect them selves from getting classed as cat 3 when they get paid to attend regatta or assist a boat or team in working with the rules.

 
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johnnysaint

Super Anarchist
8,514
0
Or to put it another way, only in 1 is the boat in the space it would require if it where maneuvering promptly to take mark-room through out.

That last one is the currently accepted interpretation chosen, in my opinion, because it still gives some ability to lay a mark trap in team racing. You are right in saying that this does not require a straight course. The short hand for the course required is 'a corridor'. One that would not constrain the boat to a straight like but none the less does illustrate the bounds of a space defined by prompt action.

Feeling slightly sorry for PEd here.

Basically he had exactly the same argument with me a while ago on here with me arguing for the direct interpretation and him arguing your position (seem to remember BalticBandit being quite involved too).

At the time there was a division of opinion amongst rule wallers and no conclusive Q&A, case etc. etc. In fact there was a reluctance to give one because the reasonably obvious interpretation of the rules as written, rather than the intention in writing them, was for a direct requirement. Remember that the disciplines that involve the most rigorous application of the rule are match and team racing. For that reason a lot of the guys who have an interest in and the best understanding of the operation of the rules also have an interest in match or team racing. The latter in particular relies on interpretations of the rules to make it interesting that are not necessarily the most obvious or even appropriate for fleet racing.

How ever if often comes across the reason IJ/IUs stick to the communally agreed interpretation of the rules and do not comment publicly where there is no agreed interpretation is that, as well as helping out at the local regatta, they operate at the top level of the game. At that level consistency of decision making is highly important. For that reason they occasionally have to tell a competitor something that they may not personally agree with entirely them selves. It's obvious how that may make it hard for them to get in a discussion about it!

They are listening though. The amendment to suddenly allow an outside boat a proper course rounding as well as a mark-room one if a give mark-room boat becomes overlapped inside her came, I would venture, directly from a case raised here on Sailing Anarchy.

There is now consensus on how this should be interpreted. This one is a done deal.

If you want to get stuck into something how about the rules experts deliberately interpreting 'capable of improving the performance of a boat' to protect them selves from getting classed as cat 3 when they get paid to attend regatta or assist a boat or team in working with the rules.
Thanks for that reasoned response. I admit I will have to read it again a couple more times to fully absorb it. A darn sight better response than the "I'm God and you're wrong attitude" I've had through this thread from some people.

On your last sentence? - NO THANK YOU, don't want to touch that!

 

morrisre

Super Anarchist
2,696
2
By the way that is the currently chosen interpretation for the definition of mark-room, selected as it allows a boat to hang about in the corridor indefinitely.

It also allows a boat to hang about next to the committee boat at the start claiming a leeward boat can not close it out because it is in the space defined by room.

The inconsistency comes because it is not the interpretation used for RRS11/15/16. There the windward boat is required to act promptly as well as be in a space defined by prompt action.

The issue I still have is that this is picking and choosing your interpretation to result in a desired outcome and not the consistent application of a common understanding of the rules.

... in other words, be careful how you apply this!!!

 
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