Rules and protest question

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,961
58
SF Bay
I have not waved my request for a hearing. But the race committee wants it to be settled between the parties. Both boats withdrew from the race so there will be no change in the race results. As long as the insurance company continues to say it was the other boats fault I guess I am good with waiting. That said, I do not want to lose my right to a hearing. I am a little confused as to what I need to do, if anything, to maintain my right to a hearing if things take a turn in an unexpected direction.

 

Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
Allen,

** There may be local rules (or National Prescriptions) which affect your situation. Please ask an expert on these to advise you. **

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Race%20Admin/Racing%20Rules/Documents/2013-2016.US.Sailing.Prescriptions.rev.06.24.14.pdf

It is terribly important to preserve your right to a hearing. You will get no sympathy or help if you miss your chance, and then later find you should have done it!

The club has an obligation under rule 63.1 to hear the hearing. If they haven't done so after 30 days, you can use the 'Appeal' system. Read rule 70 onwards and Appendix R.

You have 15 days after the 30th day of no hearing. But don't leave it this long. You need to give yourself time to collect the information required to appeal. I suggest you start today to compile your appeal document.

So after 45 days of no hearing, you have no recourse, unless the appeals committee take pity on you, and extend the time limit.

If the decision of a protest hearing is crucial to your insurance claim or has any legal relevance, then I would demand within the time limit to have the hearing heard.

If you're not getting the responses or attention you want, send the appeal in anyway. They'll soon sit up when they get a letter from the authority asking them to explain themselves. Record everything. Don't leave it until the last minute, and don't rely on others. Definitely don't rely on them to 'get it done'. If they are deliberately stalling, then its your fault.

Again... you have no recourse if you don't appeal.

It's not that you want to 'rock the boat' or cause trouble. That's the problem. You don't. You must though, protect yourself against people for who ignoring the problem until time runs out is their usual strategy.

Good luck.

DW

 
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allene222

Super Anarchist
3,961
58
SF Bay
Below is from the sailing instructions. Not clear to me if there is a "national authority" and if there is I have no idea what that would be. This is a once a year race by our club. This was the 150th year of this race although it's character has changed over the years. I will certainly make clear to them that I am not waiving my right to a hearing.

6.5 Protests – This section replaces YRA 17.
6.5.1 This changes RRS rule 60.1: All yachts regardless of size shall inform the protested yacht by hailing
immediately and then by the display of a red flag as soon as possible after the incident.
6.5.2 This changes RRS rule 61.3: A protesting yacht is required to notify the Race Committee of her intention to
protest at the time she finishes. The Race Committee can be contacted on Channel 72.
6.5.3 And, protests shall be submitted in writing on official forms available in the RRS or on an MMBA protest form
available at the MMBA T Shirt table on the EYC lawn. Protest forms shall be submitted at the T Shirt Table prior
to 1830 PDST on the day of the regatta.
6.6 Time Limit
6.6.1 This changes RRS rules 35 & Appendix A - A4.1: Yachts that do not cross the finish line prior to 1730 PDST
hours will be scored "Did Not Finish" (DNF).
6.7 Appeals – This replaces YRA 18.
6.7.1 There is no provision for appealing the judgment of the Protest Committee. Their judgement is
final.
 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
I am assuming the SSIs stated the race would be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing RRS. If they DID NOT, then only ColRegs would apply (See Rule 13) and they are really fucked, since they basically ran you down. If they invoke the RRS, then they must follow rule 70 and the US Sailing Prescription below.

6.7.1 directlly contridicts the RRS and US Prescriptions. They can only deny your right to appeal if they have permission 1st from the National authority (US Sailing)

SECTION D
APPEALS
70 APPEALS AND REQUESTS TO A NATIONAL AUTHORITY
70.1 (a) Provided that the right of appeal has not been denied under rule
70.5, a party to a hearing may appeal a protest committee’s
decision or its procedures, but not the facts found.
( B) A boat may appeal when she is denied a hearing required by
rule 63.1.

There shall be no appeal from the decisions of an international jury
constituted in compliance with Appendix N. Furthermore, if the
notice of race and the sailing instructions so state, the right of appeal
may be denied provided that
(a) it is essential to determine promptly the result of a race that
will qualify a boat to compete in a later stage of an event or a
subsequent event (a national authority may prescribe that its
approval is required for such a procedure);
( B) a national authority so approves for a particular event open
only to entrants under its own jurisdiction; or
© a national authority after consultation with the ISAF so
approves for a particular event, provided the protest committee
is constituted as required by Appendix N, except that only two
members of the protest committee need be International
Judges.


From USS prescriptions:

Rule 70.5(a) After rule 70.5(a) add US Sailing prescribes that its approval is required. Go to ussailing.org/racingrules/documents and click the ‘No Appeal’ link for more information or to obtain approval.

So this is one of the rules that changing in this manner (No appeal) is highly restricted. I would go right to USS and appeal - the SI of 6.7.1 will not be honored (and they should be ashamed of themselves for trying.)

Good luck. Preserve your right to appeal!!!

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,961
58
SF Bay
I both wish I could say more and lament that I have said too much. I will update this thread at in the future.

 

Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
Allen,

I'm sorry for your situation.

I would consider starting the appeal process. This will take time to find out about, and collect the information.

You never know, the hearing might miraculously materialize as a result of your enquiries. Neverthless, the appeal can be dismissed, or upheld. Either way, it is the only way to preserve your right to a hearing.

I've never heard of SIs denying the right to appeal, without there being special permissions.

However, I do admit that I don't know the intricacies of US sailing structure and rules, so can't offer much more advice.

DW

 

Tunnel Rat

Super Anarchist
3,147
467
Below is from the sailing instructions. Not clear to me if there is a "national authority" and if there is I have no idea what that would be. This is a once a year race by our club. This was the 150th year of this race although it's character has changed over the years. I will certainly make clear to them that I am not waiving my right to a hearing.

6.5 Protests – This section replaces YRA 17.
6.5.1 This changes RRS rule 60.1: All yachts regardless of size shall inform the protested yacht by hailing
immediately and then by the display of a red flag as soon as possible after the incident.
6.5.2 This changes RRS rule 61.3: A protesting yacht is required to notify the Race Committee of her intention to
protest at the time she finishes. The Race Committee can be contacted on Channel 72.
6.5.3 And, protests shall be submitted in writing on official forms available in the RRS or on an MMBA protest form
available at the MMBA T Shirt table on the EYC lawn. Protest forms shall be submitted at the T Shirt Table prior
to 1830 PDST on the day of the regatta.
6.6 Time Limit
6.6.1 This changes RRS rules 35 & Appendix A - A4.1: Yachts that do not cross the finish line prior to 1730 PDST
hours will be scored "Did Not Finish" (DNF).
6.7 Appeals – This replaces YRA 18.
6.7.1 There is no provision for appealing the judgment of the Protest Committee. Their judgement is
final.
If you go ahead and appeal, you would be appealling the lack of a hearing, you will not be appealling the judgement of the Protest Committee as no Protest Committee has been formed.

ftbinc - The race must be under RRS as the quotation above indicates that some RRS rules have been amended.

 
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random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
Scanned the posts but missed the "decision of the protest committee". Was there one?

WTF would he be appealing? I don't get it.

 
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Reht

Super Anarchist
2,758
6
Goodvibes, the appeal would be to the national authority, basically pointing out that there was no hearing held within 30 days of the protest being submitted. Re-read the last few posts and it's outlined there (along with quotes of the relevant rules).

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,171
1,064
South East England
I tend to agree, if the OA is showing no signs of holding the hearing and especially if it has declared a no appeals policy, assuming it is not entitled to do, then its time to contact the National Authority, sooner rather than later.

 
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random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
Goodvibes, the appeal would be to the national authority, basically pointing out that there was no hearing held within 30 days of the protest being submitted. Re-read the last few posts and it's outlined there (along with quotes of the relevant rules).
Yep, but the 'appeal' was only ruled out to the Protest Committee decision in the SIs, but not to another authority.

 
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JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,171
1,064
South East England
Below is from the sailing instructions. Not clear to me if there is a "national authority" and if there is I have no idea what that would be.
Your National Authority, assuming the event was in the US, would be US Sailing.

This page is a good starting point.

http://www.ussailing.org/race-officials/rules-and-appeals/how-to-file-an-appeal/

Note that there's a phone number and email link if you need assistance. In this case I think you'd be well advised to contact them, if only to find out whether the club actually had the right to deny appeals or not.

 
G

Guest

Guest
I have not waved my request for a hearing. But the race committee wants it to be settled between the parties. Both boats withdrew from the race so there will be no change in the race results. As long as the insurance company continues to say it was the other boats fault I guess I am good with waiting. That said, I do not want to lose my right to a hearing. I am a little confused as to what I need to do, if anything, to maintain my right to a hearing if things take a turn in an unexpected direction.
If you feel you are in the right, I would demand a hearing before your statue of limitations expires. It will help your case with the insurance companies if you're confident you will win. If you're not, we'll then roll the dice......

 
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ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Hi Allen:

Tried to PM you , but i couldn't.

Again, If they choose to follow the RRS, then the OA agrees to be governed by them as well - Rule 3 of RRS

3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each
competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
( B) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under
the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided
in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules;

IF they refuse to hold a Protest hearing then I would believe the whole thing goes under ColRegs - I would hire an attorney and make sure you get fees as part of the settlement.

Running down a smaller boat should never be OK or without major consequences. Fortunately, no one was hurt or killed this time. Sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport.
-p
 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,759
171
Hi Allen:

Tried to PM you , but i couldn't.

Again, If they choose to follow the RRS, then the OA agrees to be governed by them as well - Rule 3 of RRS

3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each
competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
( B) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under
the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided
in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules;

IF they refuse to hold a Protest hearing then I would believe the whole thing goes under ColRegs - I would hire an attorney and make sure you get fees as part of the settlement.

Running down a smaller boat should never be OK or without major consequences. Fortunately, no one was hurt or killed this time. Sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport.
-p
NO THE COLREGS DO NOT APPLY, whether there is a protest hearing or not.

If there is no protest hearing, the insurer or if necessary the court should apply the RRS.

Allen,

First thing you need to decide is whether you want a written protest decision to support your insurance/damages claim. It is probably to your advantage to get one, but you should consult your insurance broker or insurer.

If you want a protest decision, I suggest that if the Organising Authority or Race Committee has indicated to you that they do not intend to hold a protest hearing, you write to them, pointing out that:

  1. their SI purporting to deny the right of appeal is invalid because rule 70 which provide the right of appeal is a rule which rule 86.1( a ) specifically prohibits being changed by SI or otherwise;
  2. you request that they arrange a protest hearing of your protest promptly;
  3. if no protest hearing is held you are entitled to appeal under rule 70.1( b ), and if that happens you will consider doing so.
Then, if no hearing is concluded within 30 days of when you delivered your written protest, submit an appeal to the YRA immediately.

You should expect to win such an appeal, in which case, the Appeals Committee can return the protest to be heard by a protest committee appointed by the OA/RC, or the Appeals Committee may itself appoint a protest committee to hear it (rule 71.2).

 
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Raked Aft\\

Super Anarchist
1,859
77
The North Coast
Hi Allen:

Tried to PM you , but i couldn't.

Again, If they choose to follow the RRS, then the OA agrees to be governed by them as well - Rule 3 of RRS

3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each
competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
( B) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under
the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided
in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules;

IF they refuse to hold a Protest hearing then I would believe the whole thing goes under ColRegs - I would hire an attorney and make sure you get fees as part of the settlement.

Running down a smaller boat should never be OK or without major consequences. Fortunately, no one was hurt or killed this time. Sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport.
-p
NO THE COLREGS DO NOT APPLY, whether there is a protest hearing or not.

If there is no protest hearing, the insurer or if necessary the court should apply the RRS.

Allen,

First thing you need to decide is whether you want a written protest decision to support your insurance/damages claim. It is probably to your advantage to get one, but you should consult your insurance broker or insurer.

If you want a protest decision, I suggest that if the Organising Authority or Race Committee has indicated to you that they do not intend to hold a protest hearing, you write to them, pointing out that:

  1. their SI purporting to deny the right of appeal is invalid because rule 70 which provide the right of appeal is a rule which rule 86.1( a ) specifically prohibits being changed by SI or otherwise;
  2. you request that they arrange a protest hearing of your protest promptly;
  3. if no protest hearing is held you are entitled to appeal under rule 70.1( b ), and if that happens you will consider doing so.
Then, if no hearing is concluded within 30 days of when you delivered your written protest, submit an appeal to the YRA immediately.

You should expect to win such an appeal, in which case, the Appeals Committee can return the protest to be heard by a protest committee appointed by the OA/RC, or the Appeals Committee may itself appoint a protest committee to hear it (rule 71.2).
Allen,

Can you give us an idea on the status with your insurer, and existence of a racing exclusion on your policy?

As i mentioned upthread, you are staring down a loooong tunnel for a spec of light in getting a liability settlement from the other boats carrier.

I will also assert, you don't need a protest hearing to collect a settlement from your own carrier, barring a race exclusion, (which i highly doubt is there) they will pay for your mast with the simple photo evidence you have.

We have paid mast claims with far less evidence.

Unless you are up for a long protracted expensive battle, I would forgo the whole mess, get your boat fixed on your own policy, and move on with your life.

Maybe someday, a check for your deductible will show up in the mail, maybe not.

I do know that going to battle against the other boat and their insurer will dramatically change your life for the worse. I have seen it happen many times. that's why i'm suggesting what i wrote.

again,

Good luck!

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Hi Allen:

Tried to PM you , but i couldn't.

Again, If they choose to follow the RRS, then the OA agrees to be governed by them as well - Rule 3 of RRS

3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each
competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
( B) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under
the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided
in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules;

IF they refuse to hold a Protest hearing then I would believe the whole thing goes under ColRegs - I would hire an attorney and make sure you get fees as part of the settlement.

Running down a smaller boat should never be OK or without major consequences. Fortunately, no one was hurt or killed this time. Sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport.
-p
NO THE COLREGS DO NOT APPLY, whether there is a protest hearing or not.

If there is no protest hearing, the insurer or if necessary the court should apply the RRS.

Allen,

First thing you need to decide is whether you want a written protest decision to support your insurance/damages claim. It is probably to your advantage to get one, but you should consult your insurance broker or insurer.

If you want a protest decision, I suggest that if the Organising Authority or Race Committee has indicated to you that they do not intend to hold a protest hearing, you write to them, pointing out that:

  1. their SI purporting to deny the right of appeal is invalid because rule 70 which provide the right of appeal is a rule which rule 86.1( a ) specifically prohibits being changed by SI or otherwise;
  2. you request that they arrange a protest hearing of your protest promptly;
  3. if no protest hearing is held you are entitled to appeal under rule 70.1( b ), and if that happens you will consider doing so.
Then, if no hearing is concluded within 30 days of when you delivered your written protest, submit an appeal to the YRA immediately.

You should expect to win such an appeal, in which case, the Appeals Committee can return the protest to be heard by a protest committee appointed by the OA/RC, or the Appeals Committee may itself appoint a protest committee to hear it (rule 71.2).
Brass:

I meant to say, if the RRS's did not apply then Colregs would apply. I mis-spoke when I said if there was no protest hearing, What I should have said was if the OA does not include something like "that the race will be governed by the rules as defined in The

Racing Rules of Sailing" in the NORs or the SI, then it would be covered by ColRegs... my error. Thanks for catching it.
 

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