Rules and protest question

ride2live

Member
208
64
I know pictures can be deceiving but it sure looks like Seaward made a turn to windward at the last second, just in time to hook the backstay. The photo boats motion may have made it look that way but it also seems like some of the sails are luffing more in the last couple of pictures. Why would they do that and how on earth was Allen supposed to predict they would?

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,962
58
SF Bay
I entered my request for an extension of the deadline with US Sailing and I did it before the expiration of the 30 days. I informed the race committee of my action. My request was date stamped and accepted by US Sailing as verified by a phone call this morning. In addition, the race committee has informed me they are forming a protest committee and will have a hearing. Thanks to everyone here for pointing out the need to do this.

I know pictures can be deceiving but it sure looks like Seaward made a turn to windward at the last second, just in time to hook the backstay. The photo boats motion may have made it look that way but it also seems like some of the sails are luffing more in the last couple of pictures. Why would they do that and how on earth was Allen supposed to predict they would?

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,962
58
SF Bay
I heard a rumor from someone who should know that the protest committee is likely to deny hearing the protest because both boats did not finish. Is there a rule or case I can reference that says this cannot happen? Also, in terms of redress, this is a one design class with three boats. One boat DNS and the other withdrew to render assistance. Can I ask for 2nd place or should I just ask for unspecified redress. Can I ask that the boat that withdrew to see if I had been killed (which the boat that hit me did not) get awarded the class trophy?

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,540
678
Boston, MA
I heard a rumor from someone who should know that the protest committee is likely to deny hearing the protest because both boats did not finish. Is there a rule or case I can reference that says this cannot happen? Also, in terms of redress, this is a one design class with three boats. One boat DNS and the other withdrew to render assistance. Can I ask for 2nd place or should I just ask for unspecified redress. Can I ask that the boat that withdrew to see if I had been killed (which the boat that hit me did not) get awarded the class trophy?
Rule 63.1 says, in part, "The protest committee shall hear all protests and requests for redress that have been delivered to the race office unless it allows a protest or request to be withdrawn. As long as the validity of the protest is upheld - which it should be under 63.5 "...if the protest has been made under rule 60.3a1, the committee shall also determine whether or not injury or serious damage resulted from the incident in question."

Allen, I'm no expert on this but the requirements for the protest are essentially around the validity of the hail and was the protest filed in time. There is no requirement that either boat finish so if they cite that, you'd have grounds for an appeal to the next higher authority.

As far as your request for redress, I believe you simply have to state the facts of what happened and the protest committee will determine what, if any, redress is appropriate. your friend who came to make sure you were ok should also apply, separately, for redress, although the PC can apply redress for them even if they didn't request it.. Not sure you can ask for a specific outcome. You might consider something like a corinthian sportsperson's award for the class to recognize good seamenship and fair play.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,763
172
I heard a rumor from someone who should know that the protest committee is likely to deny hearing the protest because both boats did not finish. Is there a rule or case I can reference that says this cannot happen? Also, in terms of redress, this is a one design class with three boats. One boat DNS and the other withdrew to render assistance. Can I ask for 2nd place or should I just ask for unspecified redress. Can I ask that the boat that withdrew to see if I had been killed (which the boat that hit me did not) get awarded the class trophy?
As Ryley said rule 63.1 requires that there shall be a hearing of all protests that are delivered to the race office unless the protesting boat withdraws the protest and the protest committee allows this.

This applies whether there is any question of validity or not. If there is any question of validity, this must be decided in the hearing in accordance with rule 63.5.

Presumably your written protest was delivered to the place specified in the SI within the protest time limit, so this requirement for validity will be met.

There was serious damage in the incident. This damage would have been obvious to both boats involved, so the requirements to hail 'protest' and display a red flag do not apply but you were required to attempt to inform the other boat within the protest time limit (rule 61.1( a )(4)).

I'd be inclined to ask, with respect to redress, just to be given a place in the race. Let the protest committee figure it out. If you were ahead of your friend who stood by to help you at the time of the incident, you would be reasonable to ask for first place, but to say so might seem greedy to the protest committee.

Your friend who stood by to help you should request redress if he wants it. If giving you help did not prevent him from finishing, then arguably, not finishing is a fault of his own and he is not entitled to redress (rule 62.1), but protest committee's are usually generous to boats that give help under rule 62.1( c ).

If your friend has not already delivered a request for redress, it would still be worth his while to put one in (pronto, before the hearing of your protest).

While a protest committee can consider redress without being requested to do so, it's foolish to rely on them doing this without a request.

If you friend does not get his request in then you can certainly give evidence that he gave assistance and his score was made worse by doing so. You could also bring him along as a witness, and get his story about the facts of an entitlement to redress before your protest committee.

You can certainly state your opinion to the protest committee that your friend gave up the opportunity to win the trophy by helping you (and that the Schooner did nothing to help you (as required by rule 1.1).

 
G

Guest

Guest
I heard a rumor from someone who should know that the protest committee is likely to deny hearing the protest because both boats did not finish. Is there a rule or case I can reference that says this cannot happen? Also, in terms of redress, this is a one design class with three boats. One boat DNS and the other withdrew to render assistance. Can I ask for 2nd place or should I just ask for unspecified redress. Can I ask that the boat that withdrew to see if I had been killed (which the boat that hit me did not) get awarded the class trophy?

Allen, it sounds like the people who are making decisions re a protest hearing, whether they be the OA, the RO or whoever - they sound like a bunch of dumbasses who also don't know the rules. I'm not sure I would be comfortable getting a decision from them. My gut says they are trying to shirk their responsibility because:

a. They're lazy

b. they don't want to get involved in what is likely to be a major PITA with the insurance companies

c. They are incompetent

d. All of the above

I would be spring-loaded to appeal to US Sailing if I were you because I don't have a good feeling this is going to be as professional and as comprehensive as you would probably like it to be given the circum$tance$.

 

StumbleNola

Anarchist
620
1
New Orleans
Allen,

This PC is full of dumb asses. Withdraw for damage doesn't obviate the need for a protest, nor is it an out for the PC. It's the gentlemanly thing to do.

The one time I have been in charge of a regatta where something similar occurred the parties wanted to work it out without us. Even given that I have the judge write a formal letter waiving the time limits to file a protest in order to preserve that option if the parties needed to come back to the room for some reason.

You are getting jerked around by a PC that doesn't want to do their job.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,763
172
Allen,

More than 30 days have now elapsed since you delivered your protest.

Seemingly no hearing has taken place.

You should PROMPTLY, NOW, send an appeal to US Sailing, against the failure to hold a hearing as you are entitled to to under rule 70.1( b ), in accordance with rule R2.1( b ).

You are unwise to rely on any promises or undertakings or rumours that a hearing will be held, and if you don't get your appeal in within the next 15 days you will lose all rights.

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,293
10,118
Eastern NC
Allen,

More than 30 days have now elapsed since you delivered your protest.

Seemingly no hearing has taken place.

You should PROMPTLY, NOW, send an appeal to US Sailing, against the failure to hold a hearing as you are entitled to to under rule 70.1( b ), in accordance with rule R2.1( b ).

You are unwise to rely on any promises or undertakings or rumours that a hearing will be held, and if you don't get your appeal in within the next 15 days you will lose all rights.
^ this ^

Include a copy of your message from the race officials that they now plan to schedule a hearing; but DON'T rely on them. Make sure you save copies to show the insurance company, if they ask you about an official decision from a racing body.

Good luck, you've already had a large portion of the other kind so maybe you're due...

FB- Doug

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,962
58
SF Bay
I already appealed to us sailing. I don't think this happens much as they don't really have a process to grant an extension. Anyway. I was assured my appeal was duly noted and dated.

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,962
58
SF Bay
Hearing is over. That is a relief. Seaward broke rule 11, 12, and 14. Papoose broke no rule. Thanks to everyone here for their help.

 

Reht

Super Anarchist
2,758
6
Hearing is over. That is a relief. Seaward broke rule 11, 12, and 14. Papoose broke no rule. Thanks to everyone here for their help.
This is good news and the first step to getting it all sorted out. Good luck with the rest of the steps...

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
8,184
1,081
South East England
Have to admit, I don't quite see how a boat can be not keeping clear as a clear astern boat and as a windward boat at the same time.
Presumably though it can do both in the course of a single incident...

Good that Allen finally got his hearing sorting out. One hopes that is one club that will be taking a good look and revising their policies and sailing instructions.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,763
172
Have to admit, I don't quite see how a boat can be not keeping clear as a clear astern boat and as a windward boat at the same time.
Not at the same time.

First not keep clear while clear astern.

Second, becomes overlapped to windward and then doesn't keep clear.

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,293
10,118
Eastern NC
Hearing is over. That is a relief. Seaward broke rule 11, 12, and 14. Papoose broke no rule. Thanks to everyone here for their help.
Good! Glad to hear the result is consistent. This should not be a difficult process; now I hope it will help get the insurance settled quickly and favorably so you can get back to sailing.

FB- Doug

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,050
219
London, UK
Can't remember what John Doerr's exact words were about how pissed off he would be to be DSQ for breaking 12 without contact. Somewhere between "pretty" and "very", IIRC.

In this situation where there was contact (bowsprit to backstay by the looks of the photos), I would be interested in seeing the facts found as to how 11 subsequently comes into play. Or how 11 switches and then 12 applies. To me, there's broadly a choice of 2 possibilities:1) gain the overlap, then sweep the bowsprit across the boat and take the mast down (left hand picture below), or 2) don't establish the overlap and the bowsprit hooks up the backstay.(Right hand picture).

sweep.png

But Allen, it's probably a bad idea to spread this around any more, so I'll leave it at that.

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,962
58
SF Bay
I am negotiating with the insurance company so do not wish to discuss details of that here. I will share some things about the hearing in case it would help others in the future.

Their bowsprit overlapped us before their bobstay hit us thus both rule 11 and 12.

The other party explained that they were afraid of t-boning us so they "tracked our stern" (headed up) as a way of avoiding us. You can see they headed up by looking at the shadow on the large jib. With the high resolution pictures we purchased, I measured it at about 15 degrees in the last 9 seconds by looking at the shadow of the mast on the deck. I don't understand the logic of aiming at us to avoid us so anyone does, please share.

Those pictures were shot with a 30mm or 82mm equivalent lens which put the boat taking the pictures about 270 feet away. I determined that from the lens focal length and the mast heights and a little trig suing one of the pictures.

The pictures had very little if any weight in the protest. Rule M7 is worth a read if you want to present photo evidence. I had answers to all those questions but they didn't ask. I volunteered most of the answers when I presented the pictures but they still told me after the hearing that they didn't consider them as important evidence. What they went on was the testimony of the two skippers and my single witness. My strategy was that this was a straightforward case so I didn't want to present a lot of material or have a lot of witnesses. I had an opening statement prepared but the hearing was more questions and answers starting with them having me show what happened with the model boats. I used three boats of each color corresponding to the about 10 seconds that I was able to deduce positions from the photos and the memory of my crew. Seawards version of the position of the boats was drastically different with the 10 second mark having his boat in front of mine and approaching at 90 degrees. I then brought out the picture corresponding to that time to show they were behind me. I don't think the protest committee members "got" the idea that the boat was heading up from the shadow moving but their skipper said he was doing it and it really didn't change the fact that he hit me. They never asked what I did to avoid the collision so I guess what we said about holding our course until it was no longer clear they would not keep clear at which point it was too late to avoid it was sufficient. I think a lot of people think if someone is clear astern and overtaking you that it is up to them to keep clear and near impossible for the overtaken boat to do anything. One last point is that I found out just a few days before the hearing that one of my crew hailed them that we were going to hit as soon as he realized they would not keep clear. He had told me that he said we were going to hit but I had not realized he said it loud enough for the other boat to hear. I didn't recall the hail but the witness I bought did. That may have helped.

In terms of who saw what when, my witness periodically did a 360 scan of the horizon and first took note of Seaward about 4 boat lengths behind us and one boat length to windward. I saw them about 2 boat lengths behind us, way before I remembered seeing them, but I can see from the photos that I am looking back at the 9 second mark.

The main benefit of the photos was that by carefully studying the high resolution shots and zooming in on details, I was able to piece together some of the details of what happened, things I had not recalled or recalled wrong, like when I saw them.

You might enjoy the following picture taken about 2 seconds past the collision. You can see my backstay complete with the Master Mariners flag. My backstay ultimately broke their bowsprit but my backstay chain plate did not break.

collision2_31close.jpg


Here is a picture of my pushpit. You can see my backstay chainplate bent off to port if you look closely,

collision2_stern.jpg


The thing I have come to realize is how lucky we were. We were hit by their bobstay which had some give to it and spun us out of the way. Had their bobstay missed us and their 62 ton steel hull hit our port transom, my boat would probably be splinters and we may have had people in the water. It could have been so much worse. Any of us could have been killed or seriously hurt. This has affected all of my crew.

This accident has really affected me. I think it is important to keep sailing, get back on the horse and all that, and a friend is taking us out on the Tuesday night races on his J-105. I look forward to having sailing be fun again. It may be a long process.

 

allene222

Super Anarchist
3,962
58
SF Bay
Can't remember what John Doerr's exact words were about how pissed off he would be to be DSQ for breaking 12 without contact. Somewhere between "pretty" and "very", IIRC.

In this situation where there was contact (bowsprit to backstay by the looks of the photos), I would be interested in seeing the facts found as to how 11 subsequently comes into play. Or how 11 switches and then 12 applies. To me, there's broadly a choice of 2 possibilities:1) gain the overlap, then sweep the bowsprit across the boat and take the mast down (left hand picture below), or 2) don't establish the overlap and the bowsprit hooks up the backstay.(Right hand picture).

attachicon.gif
sweep.png

But Allen, it's probably a bad idea to spread this around any more, so I'll leave it at that.
Saw your post after I put up my last one. I don't see any harm in discussing the protest as it will be public record. I think the idea is that they came from clear astern and were not keeping clear in that even before they hit, the collision was inevitable. Before they hit, their bowsprit was over our boat to windward of our backstay. They were overlapped to windward probably something less than a second before they hit but they were overlapped with their bowsprit before they hit.. They then hit us with their bobstay and spun us. As we spun, their bowsprit and bobstay caught our backstay. In this picture, you can see their bobstay against our toe rail and our backstay aft of their bowsprit. We have already started to spin in this picture. Also, in the photo one second before this that I am not showing, you can see that they have not hit us but the shadow of their hull in on our hull and with the direction of the sun, that would indicate an overlap.

collision2_29close.jpg


Let me just add that Seaward's skipper was very professional. He apologized and didn't try and make anything up to defend himself. They saw some things differently but he didn't try and put blame on me. It was a very unfortunate accident and they were taking responsibility for their actions. The protest committee commented after how respectful both of us were to each other and complimented us on that.

One interesting thing the protest committee said was that they have some protests where one party says something that could not have possibly happened and then the other side says something that could not possibly have happened and then they have to figure out what happened. This case was not like that.

 




Top