Rules Question: 16.2

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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Myrtle Beach,
" 16.2 In addition, on a beat to windward when after the starting signal a porttack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern to leeward of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course bear away if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to must change course immediately to continue keeping clear." 

The 2021 version of the RRS has interesting rewording, Strike outs are old, the new text is not highlighted... 

My interpretation is that under this Starboard is allowed rapidly to head up, but not bear away; so that at a sufficient distance that is not "Immediate" change required, she can head down, and then head up later, essentially forcing Port to bear away or tack by covering a wider arc of possible courses. 

disagreements? 

 

Reference

Member
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127
Seems like this will cause all sorts of problems, more than it solved.

For example, I'm going upwind on Stbd in shifty breeze.   We're knocked and the helm follows the breeze down slightly, never sailing below close hauled. 

But now Port (who wasn't going to be able to cross regardless) protests me because we didn't hold course exactly, even though holding course would have required us to sail above close hauled.  

Or lets say Port just comes in for the cross but can't quite make it. They hit us, and now can claim exoneration as long as they make the claim (and everyone will) that we bore off.  So instead of a simple port/stbd, it's our word against theirs. 

 

Roller Skates

Super Anarchist
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North
Seems like this will cause all sorts of problems, more than it solved.

For example, I'm going upwind on Stbd in shifty breeze.   We're knocked and the helm follows the breeze down slightly, never sailing below close hauled. 

But now Port (who wasn't going to be able to cross regardless) protests me because we didn't hold course exactly, even though holding course would have required us to sail above close hauled.  

Or lets say Port just comes in for the cross but can't quite make it. They hit us, and now can claim exoneration as long as they make the claim (and everyone will) that we bore off.  So instead of a simple port/stbd, it's our word against theirs. 
I feel like its giving you an answer to those.
I'd like to see a port boat win a protest about "holding course exactly". No chance.

I think their answer is "go behind" unless you don't have to. Take your risk if you want. The stern tagging high mode starboard used to use is now clearly protected, so it makes the duck the safer option.

 

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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Myrtle Beach,
my understanding is that 16.2 was amended to address bearing off to hunt while going upwind


It would seem to preclude late bear away hunting, but not late heading up hunting... 

i.e. Starboard sailing normal close hauled, sees port and shifts to sailing low and fast mode. Port now either has to duck that lower heading, or try to cross. Starboard is not enjoined from shifting to high and pinch mode by this rule, as long as Port is allowed to keep clear with time to do so. 

Seems as though the effect will be to have aggressive Starboards do that. 

 

coyotepup

Anarchist
793
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Michigan
Seems like this will cause all sorts of problems, more than it solved.

For example, I'm going upwind on Stbd in shifty breeze.   We're knocked and the helm follows the breeze down slightly, never sailing below close hauled. 

But now Port (who wasn't going to be able to cross regardless) protests me because we didn't hold course exactly, even though holding course would have required us to sail above close hauled.  

Or lets say Port just comes in for the cross but can't quite make it. They hit us, and now can claim exoneration as long as they make the claim (and everyone will) that we bore off.  So instead of a simple port/stbd, it's our word against theirs. 
Here's the rule:

In addition, on a beat to windward when a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass to leeward of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not bear away if as a result the port-tack boat must change course immediately to continue keeping clear.
I highlighted the important phrases in your post and in the rule.  If Port wasn't going to be able to cross regardless, then they're not keeping clear by sailing to pass to leeward.  So 16.2 wouldn't even apply.  Port has to first be keeping clear and then can enforce 16.2.

Yes, Port could be an ass and claim they were, and it's your word against theirs, but exactly how good is the word of a port-tack boat that T-boned a starboard tacker?  Any collision that is legitimately caused by a starboard-tacker bearing away to hunt a port-tacker that is trying its actual best to sail to stern and leeward is very likely to be beam-to-beam or nose-to-nose.  Any collision that is caused by P being a dick, not changing course, not keeping clear, and hitting S when S wasn't hunting at all, is likely to be a straight T-bone.  That should give a PC enough evidence to know whose word to believe.

 

Reference

Member
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It would seem to preclude late bear away hunting, but not late heading up hunting... 

i.e. Starboard sailing normal close hauled, sees port and shifts to sailing low and fast mode. Port now either has to duck that lower heading, or try to cross.
So I guess next question is how far apart do P and S need to be before this rule goes into effect?  Is the bear-away-hunt only prohibited when P cannot otherwise avoid, (e.g. 1 boat length) But what if you're hot & fast for 5 boat lengths, is that still "bearing away"?  And in really light wind what's a bear-away vs just keeping speed up?

 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
16.1 still prohibits starboard from "hunting up" in a close cross if it prevents port from keeping clear. But it only applies if port is so committed to the cross that she can no longer keep clear by tacking or ducking. So really only in the last few boat-lengths of a crossing situation.

As long as port still has room to keep clear by tacking or ducking starboard is free to come up and close the door on a cross.

 

coyotepup

Anarchist
793
137
Michigan
So I guess next question is how far apart do P and S need to be before this rule goes into effect?  Is the bear-away-hunt only prohibited when P cannot otherwise avoid, (e.g. 1 boat length) But what if you're hot & fast for 5 boat lengths, is that still "bearing away"?  And in really light wind what's a bear-away vs just keeping speed up?
All based on situation.  Does P have to change course immediately or not?  That's the only question to answer.  And in the case of really light wind, S is not allowed to "just keep speed up" if it forces P to change course immediately.  There's no exceptions carved out for motivations other than hunting for the sake of hunting.

 

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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Myrtle Beach,
16.1 still prohibits starboard from "hunting up" in a close cross if it prevents port from keeping clear. But it only applies if port is so committed to the cross that she can no longer keep clear by tacking or ducking. So really only in the last few boat-lengths of a crossing situation.

As long as port still has room to keep clear by tacking or ducking starboard is free to come up and close the door on a cross.
This is the effective question: can Starboard sail faster...  if they head off soon enough and thus make Port sail lower to preclude the later legal closing of the cross? 

 

Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
16.1 still prohibits starboard from "hunting up" in a close cross if it prevents port from keeping clear. But it only applies if port is so committed to the cross that she can no longer keep clear by tacking or ducking. So really only in the last few boat-lengths of a crossing situation.

As long as port still has room to keep clear by tacking or ducking starboard is free to come up and close the door on a cross.
thank you for that,  that makes the most sense for that situation..

 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
This is the effective question: can Starboard sail faster...  if they head off soon enough and thus make Port sail lower to preclude the later legal closing of the cross? 
I would say yes, as long as port doesn't immediately have to change course to keep clear. But I think if I were on starboard I'd be leery of bearing away once port looked like she was committed to ducking - it seems like asking for trouble.

 

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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Myrtle Beach,
I would say yes, as long as port doesn't immediately have to change course to keep clear. But I think if I were on starboard I'd be leery of bearing away once port looked like she was committed to ducking - it seems like asking for trouble.
I would think that if you were on Starboard and wanted to do this: You would bear away early and slowly, such that Port would either calculate they might cross and risk the foul/crash tack, or would start to bear away, and would continue to do so as you gradually lowered your course. 

It's a delicate question to be sure

 

Spoonie

Anarchist
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Sydney
It's a delicate question to be sure
I'm not sure it is.  To start with, 16.1 and 14 put a lot of onus on right of way boats to not do anything stupid.  If you are able to change course to hit someone, you are able to change course to avoid hitting someone.  With that in mind, a right of way boat needs to think about what they are doing before change course at all.

16.2 extends that in a specific scenario.  But you need to think about how the rule would be applied in a tactical sense.  When sailing up wind, a starboard tack boat wants to influence the tack or cross for purposes of control.   Bearing away can force another to tack earlier, but generally if they are keep clear by passing to leeward as the rule says, they're already going to be passing behind you.  If they are keeping clear by passing to windward, then bearing away only helps that situation

This just prevents hunting for hunting sake.   It goes beyond changing course for a tactical advantage and into just being petty out on the race course.

Right now, I'm struggling to think of valid tactical scenario where pushing the boundaries of this would make sense...  beyond hunting for hunting sake.

So the question back to you is, if you're on starboard, why would you want to do this?  You're on a beat to windward, so it's after the start, and P is already keeping clear by passing to leeward/behind you.  What advantage does S get by bearing away? 

 

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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Myrtle Beach,
if you're on starboard, why would you want to do this?  You're on a beat to windward, so it's after the start, and P is already keeping clear by passing to leeward/behind you.  What advantage does S get by bearing away? 
The tactical advantage is in making P have a larger deviation, and losing more speed/distance to weather. Is it "sharp" sailing, much as in any match race where tagging for a penalty is considered valid?

Probably not very useful tactic in fleet racing, unless you are in a late series race where all you have to do is beat that one boat, or beat it by more than a single place. 

The unrestrained ability to wind up, deliberately to deny the cross if you bear away early enough allows control of more water. It's not something I would likely try in my heavy boat, but I could see dinghy's doing this 

 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
Right now, I'm struggling to think of valid tactical scenario where pushing the boundaries of this would make sense...  beyond hunting for hunting sake.

So the question back to you is, if you're on starboard, why would you want to do this?  You're on a beat to windward, so it's after the start, and P is already keeping clear by passing to leeward/behind you.  What advantage does S get by bearing away? 
I think it's a more common move in team racing than fleet racing. Changes to the rule for 2021 were specifically aimed at a team racing scenario where starboard might bear off below 90 degrees to the wind.

Note that 16.2 is deleted in match racing so the dial-down is allowed.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
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Note that 16.2 is deleted in match racing so the dial-down is allowed.
And the Call Book promptly puts it back in again

MR CALL D6
Rule 16.1 Changing Course
Definitions Room
Question
Blue is close-hauled on port tack and Yellow is close-hauled on starboard tack on a
leg of the course to a windward mark. Yellow bears away to a course that is more
than ninety degrees from the true wind, and that is below her proper course and as a
result Blue has to immediately change course to keep clear. Flag Y is displayed.
What should the call be?
Answer
Penalize Yellow. Yellow breaks rule 16.1 by not giving Blue room, namely the
space to manoeuvre in a seamanlike way.

 

Spoonie

Anarchist
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91
Sydney
The unrestrained ability to wind up, deliberately to deny the cross if you bear away early enough allows control of more water. It's not something I would likely try in my heavy boat, but I could see dinghy's doing this 
16.1 still applies.  If S changes course such that P can't respond, then S gets dinged.  Doesn't matter which way S changes course in that context. you're more likely to pull it off on a heavy yacht than a dingy.  Pinching a dingy is death  

It would have to be a big fakey... you dive down so that it looks like P will cross, then come up again.  To what aim though?  Other than so S can tag P on the way through that is.  You'd have to get the timing just right in order for P to panic and chuck a tack in if that is your aim. 

It might make sense if your aim is to control P all the way to the lay line.  Normally though, if you want your competitor going left, it's because you want to go right.   A slam dunk is probably more effective at achieving that.  P chucking a tack in quickly could end badly for you.  

Perhaps in a team race.  Maverick on S takes the mig out so that iceman on P can escape through to leeward? 

Game the move out though, then think about the 2 or three moves after.  It would be so that S exerts a tight control over P.  The outcomes though are likely to be very different

*shrug* 

 
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