Rules Question - an odd Rule 18 situation

G

Guest

Guest
We haven't had a rules discussion for a while and I'm bored. So here's my question:

Upwind mark, normal starboard rounding. Boat A is above the Stb LL after overstanding, boat B is on Port. They are both in the zone and will converge about 2.5 BLs from the mark. B tacks underneath and to leeward of A. B is pinching to make the mark while A was footing down to the mark prior to B's tack. A is now sailing higher that she was up to close hauled. and maybe even slightly above close hauled (but not HTW).

Where in the rules does it say that B cannot make A sail above close hauled if B establishes an overlap inside the zone? I've read that somewhere but cannot find it. 18.2c(2) seems the relevant rule here.



18.2

c)

(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.
If A's proper course were to foot below close hauled and B made her point higher than that low course, is B not violating R18.2?

 

duncan (the other one)

Super Anarchist
5,508
525
Siderney
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)

 
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We haven't had a rules discussion for a while and I'm bored. So here's my question:

Upwind mark, normal starboard rounding. Boat A is above the Stb LL after overstanding, boat B is on Port. They are both in the zone and will converge about 2.5 BLs from the mark. B tacks underneath and to leeward of A. B is pinching to make the mark while A was footing down to the mark prior to B's tack. A is now sailing higher that she was up to close hauled. and maybe even slightly above close hauled (but not HTW).

Where in the rules does it say that B cannot make A sail above close hauled if B establishes an overlap inside the zone? I've read that somewhere but cannot find it. 18.2c(2) seems the relevant rule here.

18.2

c)

(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.
If A's proper course were to foot below close hauled and B made her point higher than that low course, is B not violating R18.2?
18.3Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and

( B) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.

 
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B's inside position and protection under 18.3 would also apply for a starboard rounding (once A gets around to fetching).

Wording of the original situation a bit confusing... they are already in the zone (within 3 boat lengths of the mark) but will (in the future) converge 2.5 boat lengths from the mark ... and then B is gonna have room to tack as well ... that's a lot of stuff trying to go on in a small space and time; not sure that works too well logistically and can all happen in half a boat length. A diagram might help.

Why would A not have corrected her overstanding of the mark before reaching the zone? Anyhow, A can probably fix this while B is jerking around tacking inside the zone.

Why are we talking about proper course here? It's not going to get a chance to become relevant.

Why is B now having to pinch to fetch the mark after tacking onto starboard? If it's a starboard rounding, she's outside of A and will have wait for A to turn; if it's a port rounding, she wouldn't have been allowed to go inside of A while tacking in the zone.

Tactically, A could probably have footed off a bit before reaching the zone and forced B to tack out of port-starboard situation; proper course would not apply.

I'm just having a hard time picturing this situation as being very sensible. no comprendo. Peeechure, pleeese.

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,050
219
London, UK
Dangerous at a starboard rounding, as you're open to breaking 10.

Changing next year anyway to only apply at port roundings. From January, 18.3 will read:

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
 
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TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
The way I read this situation (considering it a "standard" port rounding) if A had footed off to a course below the mark, come down onto the layline and then come up to a close-hauled course on the layline approaching the mark before converging with B then B would be forced to tack below the layline and would not be entitled to mark room as that would force A above close-hauled in violation of 18.3(a). Tactically this is probably A's best move, as long as they don't expect a header near the mark.

If A continues reaching into the mark above the layline and allows B to tack on layline (or even slightly below to pinch or shoot the mark) then I believe A would owe B mark room.

 

Earl Boebert

Member
445
57
Dangerous at a starboard rounding, as you're open to breaking 10.

Changing next year anyway to only apply at port roundings. From January, 18.3 will read:

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Where do you find the upcoming changes?

Cheers,

Earl

 

Dog Watch

Super Anarchist
1,465
20
B's inside position and protection under 18.3 would also apply for a starboard rounding (once A gets around to fetching).

Wording of the original situation a bit confusing... they are already in the zone (within 3 boat lengths of the mark) but will (in the future) converge 2.5 boat lengths from the mark ... and then B is gonna have room to tack as well ... that's a lot of stuff trying to go on in a small space and time; not sure that works too well logistically and can all happen in half a boat length. A diagram might help.

Why would A not have corrected her overstanding of the mark before reaching the zone? Anyhow, A can probably fix this while B is jerking around tacking inside the zone.

Why are we talking about proper course here? It's not going to get a chance to become relevant.

Why is B now having to pinch to fetch the mark after tacking onto starboard? If it's a starboard rounding, she's outside of A and will have wait for A to turn; if it's a port rounding, she wouldn't have been allowed to go inside of A while tacking in the zone.

Tactically, A could probably have footed off a bit before reaching the zone and forced B to tack out of port-starboard situation; proper course would not apply.

I'm just having a hard time picturing this situation as being very sensible. no comprendo. Peeechure, pleeese.

----------------

The way I read this situation (considering it a "standard" port rounding) if A had footed off to a course below the mark, come down onto the layline and then come up to a close-hauled course on the layline approaching the mark before converging with B then B would be forced to tack below the layline and would not be entitled to mark room as that would force A above close-hauled in violation of 18.3(a). Tactically this is probably A's best move, as long as they don't expect a header near the mark.

If A continues reaching into the mark above the layline and allows B to tack on layline (or even slightly below to pinch or shoot the mark) then I believe A would owe B mark room.
Good grief!

I thought this was answered in the 1st reply...no?

The guy (OP) asked about 18.3. That's all!!! Albeit some errors in the detail and some info not required. It's not that complicated. No need to pick apart his original post...

Imagine if a simple rules question was given a simple answer, and left at that? We'd have so many more people interested...

:sigh:

 
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Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,050
219
London, UK
Dangerous at a starboard rounding, as you're open to breaking 10.

Changing next year anyway to only apply at port roundings. From January, 18.3 will read:

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boatswain, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Where do you find the upcoming changes?
Cheers,

Earl

Submissions at the WS annual meeting, and the minutes of the rules committee and council to see what happened to the submission.

 

Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)
just to clarify for me ...

if the starboard boat fetching the mark has overstood the mark, then the port boat tacking in the zone can receive mark room rights as long as 18.3.a is not violated, is that correct?

 

AJ Oliver

Super Anarchist
12,894
1,806
Sandusky Sailing Club
Come on, we've all been there.

What happens is that the port tacker trying to stick it in there and tack in front of STBD

routinely says that STBD has overstood.

And frequently, PT is correct because STBD will overstand to protect itself from port tackers who

cross in front an sit in STBD's air.

What we have here is ambiguity - as in the rest of life.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,763
172
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)
just to clarify for me ...

if the starboard boat fetching the mark has overstood the mark, then the port boat tacking in the zone can receive mark room rights as long as 18.3.a is not violated, is that correct?
No.

The only rules that give a boat mark-room are rules 18.2( b ) and 18.3( b ).

When rule 18.3 applies, rule 18.2 does not (stem, rule 18.3).

Rule 18.3( b ), when it applies, only gives the fetching (starboat) boat mark-room.

 

Couta

Super Anarchist
1,206
970
Australia
Come on, we've all been there.

What happens is that the port tacker trying to stick it in there and tack in front of STBD

routinely says that STBD has overstood.

And frequently, PT is correct because STBD will overstand to protect itself from port tackers who

cross in front an sit in STBD's air.

What we have here is ambiguity - as in the rest of life.
Correct! Bottom line is that a port approach for a port sounding is dangerous - tacking anywhere near the zone in any kind of competitive fleet means you're leaving yourself open to protest - all the STB LL boat has to do is throw it's helm down for a quick luff and call protest - and they'll have plenty of support in the protest room from the other STB LL boats behind them......

 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
1,402
48
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)
just to clarify for me ...

if the starboard boat fetching the mark has overstood the mark, then the port boat tacking in the zone can receive mark room rights as long as 18.3.a is not violated, is that correct?
No.

The only rules that give a boat mark-room are rules 18.2( b ) and 18.3( b ).

When rule 18.3 applies, rule 18.2 does not (stem, rule 18.3).

Rule 18.3( b ), when it applies, only gives the fetching (starboat) boat mark-room.
And no part of 18 applies to boats on opposite tacks.

EDIT : forgot to add - at the windward mark.

 
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shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,140
1,282
Shanghai, China
On a 'standard' port tack rounding, any port tack boat is on a hiding to nothing if they tack in the zone.

If they tack under the stb boat the stb boat has all the way to the mark to be forced above close hauled. 18.3(a)

Even if the stb tack boat doesn't have to sail above close hauled they don't have to give mark room as they were not overlapped at the point they entered the zone as upwind no overlap between opposite tack boats. 18.2( B)

If they tack in front of a stb tack boat and the stb tack boat has to dive under to avoid contact then 18.3( B) applies, the important word being "becomes".

There is a great video at

https://www.facebook.com/SB20AUS/videos/615407385254962/

​Watch AUS 3618 (I think it is) she comes in (all importantly) on starboard with pace, ducks the boat ahead which tacked in the zone and "becomes" overlapped (18.3( B) )then at the mark has to pop a luff above close hauled (18.3(a)) to avoid the black sailed boat.

All 3618 did was exercise her rights yet in the bar afterwards was accused of being F****** aggressive.

Competitive fleet though with regularly 20+ boats on the water.

Only comment on that is if the accuser thought they were wronged - take it to the room, not the bar, that's what cowards do.

This video is a beaut and I use it in showing Rule 18 - you couldn't have choreographed it better.

See ya on the water.

SS

 
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Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)
just to clarify for me ...

if the starboard boat fetching the mark has overstood the mark, then the port boat tacking in the zone can receive mark room rights as long as 18.3.a is not violated, is that correct?
No.

The only rules that give a boat mark-room are rules 18.2( b ) and 18.3( b ).

When rule 18.3 applies, rule 18.2 does not (stem, rule 18.3).

Rule 18.3( b ), when it applies, only gives the fetching (starboat) boat mark-room.

so if a port tacker comes in and tacks below and tries to squeeze in or calls for mark room , I can protest under what rule given that my boat overstood and would have to go up significantly to go head to wind?

Rule 18.3: Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, Rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tack (a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and ( B) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.
so the way I interpret the bold, as fetching boat , I have to give mark room to the boat that tacked in the zone, unless I dip under it...

 
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joseph_stalin

New member
25
0
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)
just to clarify for me ...

if the starboard boat fetching the mark has overstood the mark, then the port boat tacking in the zone can receive mark room rights as long as 18.3.a is not violated, is that correct?
No.

The only rules that give a boat mark-room are rules 18.2( b ) and 18.3( b ).

When rule 18.3 applies, rule 18.2 does not (stem, rule 18.3).

Rule 18.3( b ), when it applies, only gives the fetching (starboat) boat mark-room.

so if a port tacker comes in and tacks below and tries to squeeze in or calls for mark room , I can protest under what rule given that my boat overstood and would have to go up significantly to go head to wind?

Rule 18.3: Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, Rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tack (a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and ( B) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.
so the way I interpret the bold, as fetching boat , I have to give mark room to the boat that tacked in the zone, unless I dip under it...
You interpret that incorrectly. It's the boat that changed tack that shall give mark-room to the other boat (fetching the mark) if that other boat (fetching the mark) becomes overlapped inside her.

 

Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
keep reading...

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them.

The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

...

(oh - and I think you meant 'normal port rounding' ?)
just to clarify for me ...

if the starboard boat fetching the mark has overstood the mark, then the port boat tacking in the zone can receive mark room rights as long as 18.3.a is not violated, is that correct?
No.

The only rules that give a boat mark-room are rules 18.2( b ) and 18.3( b ).

When rule 18.3 applies, rule 18.2 does not (stem, rule 18.3).

Rule 18.3( b ), when it applies, only gives the fetching (starboat) boat mark-room.






so the way I interpret the bold, as fetching boat , I have to give mark room to the boat that tacked in the zone, unless I dip under it...
You interpret that incorrectly. It's the boat that changed tack that shall give mark-room to the other boat (fetching the mark) if that other boat (fetching the mark) becomes overlapped inside her.

so the only downside of leebowing a overstood fetching boat is that the fetching boat may protest under the pretense of going above closed hauled..

 
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RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,186
1,696
Charleston, SC
The black sailed boat violated 18 a few times there. Not to mention when they forced the other boat to tack to port as the beginning of the video. Those guys need some help calling laylines in current and doing turns...

 




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