Rules Question - an odd Rule 18 situation

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Dreaded:

Rules 10 and 13 still apply - a boat lee bowing in the zone runs the risk of breaking either of these rules - from a practical standpoint, how close would a lee bow have to be to be in the zone? pretty darn close. If the SB LL boat has to avoid before the tacking boat is on a close hauled course she gets tossed under 13. If she was trying to "shoot the mark" she might never have gone down to close hauled... If the SB LL boat has to go above Close hauled to avoided her (Honoring rule 11 and 14) the tacking boat then breaks 18, so the margin for error on the port tack boat, tacking in the zone is very small. If the tack was close, but ahead of the SB LL boat and the SB LL puts her helm down and gets an inside overlap, 18.3 starts to apply. When the SB LL doesn't make the mark or hits the mark the tacking boat gets tossed... The SB LL boat will probably win in the protest room as long as there is no contact with damage or injury...

 

Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
Just to be clear, fetching and laying are totally different- fetching is not close hauled laying is-

A boat fetching a mark can be tacked under

A boat laying shouldn't be tacked under
thank-you...

btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone..

so not including the situation of laying the mark..

a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct?

 
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ColinG

Super Anarchist
1,958
0
Sydney, AUS
Boat fetching (windward boat) is not required to give mark room.

Rule 11 (windward boat must keep clear) applies as limited by 18.3 (a), so W cannot be forced above close hauled.

If W ducks below the boat that tacked (L) and gets an overlap, L has to give W mark room under 18.3( B)

If tacking boat "gets in the way" that sounds like a breach of 15 if W is not given time to keep clear.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,759
171
Just to be clear, fetching and laying are totally different- fetching is not close hauled laying is-
Wrong.

Read the definition of Fetching.

Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

A boat that is fetching can be overstood and reaching in, coming in close hauled, or pinching up to, but not past head to wind: she is still fetching the mark if she can pass to windward of it without changing tack.

thank-you...

btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone..

so not including the situation of laying the mark..

a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct?

No it is not correct.

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2
 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
1,402
48
The tacking boat may not get mark room but if overlapped to leeward it is now the ROW boat per RRS 11. And there is no exoneration for the windward boat.

 

Earl Boebert

Member
445
57
Dangerous at a starboard rounding, as you're open to breaking 10.

Changing next year anyway to only apply at port roundings. From January, 18.3 will read:

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boatswain, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Where do you find the upcoming changes?
Cheers,

Earl
Submissions at the WS annual meeting, and the minutes of the rules committee and council to see what happened to the submission.

My computer skills have clearly atrophied as I have been unable to find the relevant files on the sailing.org site. Could I trouble you for URLs? Thanks.

Cheers,

Earl

 
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Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
Just to be clear, fetching and laying are totally different- fetching is not close hauled laying is-
Wrong.

Read the definition of Fetching.

Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

A boat that is fetching can be overstood and reaching in, coming in close hauled, or pinching up to, but not past head to wind: she is still fetching the mark if she can pass to windward of it without changing tack.

thank-you...

btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone..

so not including the situation of laying the mark..

a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct?

No it is not correct.

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2


A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2
so what rule can you protest with, if the now leward boat tries to force themselves in claiming mark room? I'm not seeing anything, posted so far, that prohibits the leward boat, besides everyone saying they don't get mark room. that's the quandry, what can you take to the room?

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,516
666
Boston, MA
Just to be clear, fetching and laying are totally different- fetching is not close hauled laying is-
Wrong.

Read the definition of Fetching.

Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

A boat that is fetching can be overstood and reaching in, coming in close hauled, or pinching up to, but not past head to wind: she is still fetching the mark if she can pass to windward of it without changing tack.

thank-you...

btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone..

so not including the situation of laying the mark..

a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct?

No it is not correct.

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2
so what rule can you protest with, if the now leward boat tries to force themselves in claiming mark room? I'm not seeing anything, posted so far, that prohibits the leward boat, besides everyone saying they don't get mark room. that's the quandry, what can you take to the room?
18.3 , 18.2c...

 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
1,402
48
Coming into the zone Rule 18 does not apply (RRS 18.1 ( a ) ) So at this point it is a Rule 10 issue (port/Stbd). Once Port tacks, they are subject to RRS 13 (While Tacking). Once done it is either an RRS 11 or RRS 12 issue depending on if there is an overlap. Say there is an overlap, then the leeward boat is the right of way boat. And since they tacked in the Zone RRS 18.3 (Tacking in the Zone), the now leeward boat is only restricted to not forcing the windward (original stbd boat) above close hauled or to the wrong side of the mark. Mark room never applied to the tacking boat but it doesn't need to.

 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
The tacking boat may not get mark room but if overlapped to leeward it is now the ROW boat per RRS 11. And there is no exoneration for the windward boat.
Yes there is. 14b clearly exonerates the windward boat as long as there is no injury or damage.
14 only exonerates the right-of-way boat or boat entitled to mark room. Once the leeward boat completes their tack, leeward/inside is ROW boat, not windward.

 
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ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Just to be clear, fetching and laying are totally different- fetching is not close hauled laying is-
Wrong.

Read the definition of Fetching.

Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

A boat that is fetching can be overstood and reaching in, coming in close hauled, or pinching up to, but not past head to wind: she is still fetching the mark if she can pass to windward of it without changing tack.

thank-you...

btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone..

so not including the situation of laying the mark..

a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct?

No it is not correct.

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2
so what rule can you protest with, if the now leward boat tries to force themselves in claiming mark room? I'm not seeing anything, posted so far, that prohibits the leward boat, besides everyone saying they don't get mark room. that's the quandry, what can you take to the room?
The defense, if you see the port boat coming, is to point down at them, accelerate (Requires the trimmers to be on the ball) get the inside overlap and claim mark room under 18.3 and ROW under 11. If you miss the mark, they are clearly in violation of 18.3. OR make sure they force you above close hauled (If the jib starts to luff even a little ...)Tactically, you have to hunt for the violation - if you do the natural thing, which is to stay "Up", they can slip in and get away with it. However, at the bar, you run the risk of being accused of being "overly aggressive" .

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,837
609
Evanston
Just to be clear, fetching and laying are totally different- fetching is not close hauled laying is-
Wrong.

Read the definition of Fetching.

Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

A boat that is fetching can be overstood and reaching in, coming in close hauled, or pinching up to, but not past head to wind: she is still fetching the mark if she can pass to windward of it without changing tack.

thank-you...

btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone..

so not including the situation of laying the mark..

a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct?

No it is not correct.

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2

A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2
so what rule can you protest with, if the now leward boat tries to force themselves in claiming mark room? I'm not seeing anything, posted so far, that prohibits the leward boat, besides everyone saying they don't get mark room. that's the quandry, what can you take to the room?

It depends if they break a rule

its perfectly possible for the now leeward boat to pass between windward and the mark without breaking any rule at all,

After all once they get to close hauled they are the Right of way boat so as long remain RoW and as they don't break R18.3 W has to live them inside.

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,759
171
Dangerous at a starboard rounding, as you're open to breaking 10.

Changing next year anyway to only apply at port roundings. From January, 18.3 will read:

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boatswain, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
Where do you find the upcoming changes?
Cheers,

Earl
Submissions at the WS annual meeting, and the minutes of the rules committee and council to see what happened to the submission.
My computer skills have clearly atrophied as I have been unable to find the relevant files on the sailing.org site. Could I trouble you for URLs? Thanks.
Normally you go to the sailing.org Documents and Rules tab and use the search panel towards the foot of the page.

But ALL the RRC submissions links that I retrieve at the moment are broken.

PEd, any ideas?

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,516
666
Boston, MA
The tacking boat may not get mark room but if overlapped to leeward it is now the ROW boat per RRS 11. And there is no exoneration for the windward boat.
Yes there is. 14b clearly exonerates the windward boat as long as there is no injury or damage.
14 only exonerates the right-of-way boat or boat entitled to mark room. Once the leeward boat completes their tack, leeward/inside is ROW boat, not windward.
The scenario is a boat tracked inside the zone and is not entitled to mark room. Therefore, the windward boat is exonerated if it hits the leeward row boat.
 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,837
609
Evanston
The tacking boat may not get mark room but if overlapped to leeward it is now the ROW boat per RRS 11. And there is no exoneration for the windward boat.
Yes there is. 14b clearly exonerates the windward boat as long as there is no injury or damage.
14 only exonerates the right-of-way boat or boat entitled to mark room. Once the leeward boat completes their tack, leeward/inside is ROW boat, not windward.
The scenario is a boat tracked inside the zone and is not entitled to mark room. Therefore, the windward boat is exonerated if it hits the leeward row boat.
you seem to think that because leeward is not entitled to mark room she has to keep clear of windward

this is not true

leeward has right of way and windward has to keep clear, if windward hits leeward windward breaks rule 11. She only gets exonerated if L forced her to break R11 by breaking some other rule.

 

Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
it woudl be easier if the rule just stated , a boat tacking in the zone is not entitled to mark room, that'll keep those asshats out of there... otherwise you have to defensive action instead of concentrating on making the turn

btw Ryley, that's one fast row boat..

btw, thanks everyone for putting up with the questions.. this is one area the rules commitee needs to make clearer....

 
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Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,026
186
London, UK
Boats tacking in the zone normally acquire right of way as a leeward boat, so mark room is moot. Something else is needed to stop port tack approaches in traffic. Hence 18.3.

 
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G

Guest

Guest
Boats tacking in the zone normally acquire right of way as a leeward boat, so mark room is moot. Something else is needed to stop port tack approaches in traffic. Hence 18.3.
Why would you need to "stop port tack approaches in traffic"?? Its part of the game. If someone allows enough space on the starboard LL to execute a leebow under you and not cause you to sail above close hauled - well then that's your fault. Why would you want to remove that aspect?

I've run into the notion a lot that if someone tacks under you in the zone - you are automatically guilty and will be tossed and very few PCs will see it the other way no matter how well executed the lee bow was. Add in a bit of dramatic acting from the Stbd boat, and its virtually impossible to win in the room. However, those same two boats may have come together all day in a tight race doing the exact same leebows up the course (think match racing) and no one says boo about it. Its just part of the game. Why is an "aggressive" lee bow halfway up the beat more aggressive when its in the zone provided 18.3 is not violated?

 




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