Rules question - defining the start line after the start.

sunseeker

Super Anarchist
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The rules answer is you need to return across the line between the starting marks as defined in the SI, however they may move.

The practical answer is you need to return to where the RO tells you to.
So in other words, the RC can just decide when someone has returned enough, regardless of the rules.
 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
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620
Evanston
My only question was if the pin moving to windward whilst attached to another boat would count as us going back behind the line or not. Not because I'm questioning the PRO, but questioning my own understanding of the situation we found ourselves in.

Brass has answered this, though perhaps not in the most transparent way.
The rules answer is you need to return across the line between the starting marks as defined in the SI, however they may move.

The practical answer is you need to return to where the RO tells you to.

The RC doesn't get to arbitrarily decide this its what the SI's state that matters, but RCs make mistakes and its often hard to get them to change their decisions. So the practical answer matters.
If the RC actually states that you came back behind the mark BUT that in their opinion you were not behind the line, then (assuming the SI's are worded in the appropriate way) you should have a case for redress.
 

CMcG

New member
In any of the races I organise I let everyone know before hand that if they are over before the gun then they have to round either the committee boat or the pin and then re cross the line from behind. This leaves no room for misunderstanding. and is a good incentive to make sure your boat is definitely not over.
 

10thTonner

Hazard to Navigation
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In any of the races I organise I let everyone know before hand that if they are over before the gun then they have to round either the committee boat or the pin and then re cross the line from behind. This leaves no room for misunderstanding. and is a good incentive to make sure your boat is definitely not over.
I assume you let everyone know this by flying India, together with P, no? (Else, some smartass might seek redress…)

As to the OP, I have no idea what the right answer is or if there’s a right answer at all. Maybe there’s a case in the rulebook?

And finally: yes, this is a relevant question. I recently sailed a regatta where many marks were GPS/E-motor controlled catamaran drones already. They were quite reliable, admittedly, but could still be moved by sudden gusts of wind or stern waves of big motorboats. If this happens twenty seconds before the start it could have a significant effect, especially for the pin-end crowd.
 
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bloodshot

Super Anarchist
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The danger there I would think is giving one boat notice that they are OCS but a boat at the other end of the line couldn't hear your hail. Rule 41 issue, I would think, if not executed correctly within the parameters of the SIs

See also USA Appeal US118
 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
Nope - just need to fly India, no need for Papa as India replaces it.

Potential problem with a straight I flag start is that it kicks in for anyone on course side in the final minute, not just boats that are OCS at the gun. That could be changed in the SI such that 30.1 restriction only applies at the starting signal.
 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
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The danger there I would think is giving one boat notice that they are OCS but a boat at the other end of the line couldn't hear your hail. Rule 41 issue, I would think, if not executed correctly within the parameters of the SIs

See also USA Appeal US118
Did you read Appeal US118?
 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
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Potential problem with a straight I flag start is that it kicks in for anyone on course side in the final minute, not just boats that are OCS at the gun. That could be changed in the SI such that 30.1 restriction only applies at the starting signal.
Not sure what the problem is with it turning on at 1 minute. The flag goes up at 4 mins (or at 2 mins at a 3 min sound start) to give everyone a heads up that it will be in effect.
 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,499
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Eastern NC
RC can call "sail number xx clear" or dip the X flag to indicate that one of multiple boats have cleared, leaving it up for the others.
I did the dip as RO for a big Laser event and was angrily informed that it was not in the rules... and they were correct, it isn't. I dunno what they were mad about, everybody seemed to understand.

As Brass wisely pointed out, ROs make mistakes on rare occasions.
 

Brass

Super Anarchist
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Actually, she could: the X Flag won't be removed until all OCS boats have returned, so when X goes down, OP can be sure that she has returned and may restart.

So you are saying that an OCS boat should go back and wait behind the line until all OCS boats have returned and the X flag has dropped? Yeah, that's not right.

No, I'm saying that if she continues sailing towards the pre start side until the X Flag comes down, then she can be confident that she has returned.

Unless she was so far over or so slow coming back that the 4 minutes ticks over.

It's all on the OCS boat to return and restart correctly. The Race Signals mean what they mean.
 

Brass

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Its been 30 years since I've raced but this interests me. As described by the OP can he protest the decision or get redress or get scored in the position he finished? (The basis of which being his contention that he was clearly below the line and had witnesses to testify to that fact on both his and his pin dragging competitor's boat)

I wouldn't like her chances.

Case 136
Rule 29.1, Recalls: Individual Recall
Rule 63.6, Hearings: Taking Evidence and Finding Facts

In finding facts, a protest committee will be governed by the weight of evidence. In general, a race committee member sighting the starting line is better placed than any competing boat to decide whether a boat was over the line at the starting signal and, if so, whether she returned and started correctly.
 

PaulK

Super Anarchist
It doesn't seem that the OP's question has really been answered. In his case a competitor snagged the mark and it moved to windward, so the RC "knew" it was out of place and that the OP hadn't returned far enough. What if the mark wasn't well anchored and the tide was moving it? Most SI's describe the starting line as between a flag on the Committee Boat and a nearby mark. According to that definition it would seem that the starting line -- and the line behind which the OCS boat must return -- would be between the flag on the Committee boat and wherever the pin is at the time they go by it.
 

Brass

Super Anarchist
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In any of the races I organise I let everyone know before hand that if they are over before the gun then they have to round either the committee boat or the pin and then re cross the line from behind. This leaves no room for misunderstanding. and is a good incentive to make sure your boat is definitely not over.

Oral Sailing Instructions huh?

Which bit of Case 32 has passed you by?

Case 32
Rule 86, Changes to the Racing Rules
Rule 90.2(c), Race Committee; Sailing Instructions; Scoring: Sailing Instructions

A competitor is entitled to look exclusively to written sailing instructions and to any written amendments for all details relating to sailing the course.
 

Brass

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The danger there I would think is giving one boat notice that they are OCS but a boat at the other end of the line couldn't hear your hail. Rule 41 issue, I would think, if not executed correctly within the parameters of the SIs

See also USA Appeal US118

Unless there is some kind of bizarre home-town favouritism, it's not a rule 41 issue: a race committee is always a 'disinterested source'.

USA Appeal US118 actually says that a hail by a race committee is not outside help.

Hailing by voice may be a fairness of competition issue if the line is so long that an affected boat at the pin end is unable to hear the hail.
 

John Ball

Member
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BC, Canada
It doesn't seem that the OP's question has really been answered. In his case a competitor snagged the mark and it moved to windward, so the RC "knew" it was out of place and that the OP hadn't returned far enough. What if the mark wasn't well anchored and the tide was moving it? Most SI's describe the starting line as between a flag on the Committee Boat and a nearby mark. According to that definition it would seem that the starting line -- and the line behind which the OCS boat must return -- would be between the flag on the Committee boat and wherever the pin is at the time they go by it.
Given that a start mark was dragged out of position, the RC should have abandoned the race and restarted it - or just do a general recall.

John
 

sunseeker

Super Anarchist
3,713
643
Given that a start mark was dragged out of position, the RC should have abandoned the race and restarted it - or just do a general recall.

John
No, Brass is here to defend the actions of the RC, no matter what they do. He’s so fucking smart he can measure with laser precision exactly where the starting line was, and know exactly where the boat did not recross that exact spot.
 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
Not sure what the problem is with it turning on at 1 minute. The flag goes up at 4 mins (or at 2 mins at a 3 min sound start) to give everyone a heads up that it will be in effect.
Lots of keelboats have starting routines that may take them over the line within the final minute and back below before the gun. There's no need to disallow that starting strategy if the objective is to have boats called OCS go around the ends so there's no doubt they returned and started properly.
 




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