Rules question - defining the start line after the start.

[antiussentiment]

Rule 34 says (yes I looked this up. Who knows rule numbers off the top of their head?) basically says if a mark moves or is missing. The point on the course it was "marking" does not. So you would have needed to dip behind the start line the mark was delineating when it was in it's correct position.

Obviously you need to use your best reckoning to do this..

Hopefully that helps?

 

[JohnMB]

Rule 34 says (yes I looked this up. Who knows rule numbers off the top of their head?) basically says if a mark moves or is missing. The point on the course it was "marking" does not. So you would have needed to dip behind the start line the mark was delineating when it was in it's correct position.

Obviously you need to use your best reckoning to do this..

Hopefully that helps?

It doesn't say that; it says:

34 MARK MISSING
If a mark is missing or out of position while boats are racing, the race committee shall, if possible,
(a) replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of similar appearance, or
(b) substitute an object displaying flag M and make repetitive sound signals.

If the mark has moved and the RC has not replaced it or substituted it, then the mark is still the mark, wherever it happens to be.
In the case described if as soon as the mark moved the RC deployed a pin boat with an M flag then that pin boat would immediately become the mark. But until the RC has replaced or substritued there is no 'virtual mark' in the original spot that has to be obeyed.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Rule 34 says (yes I looked this up. Who knows rule numbers off the top of their head?) basically says if a mark moves or is missing. The point on the course it was "marking" does not. So you would have needed to dip behind the start line the mark was delineating when it was in it's correct position.

Obviously you need to use your best reckoning to do this..

Hopefully that helps?

It does not say that:
What it does say is

34 MARK MISSING
If a mark is missing or out of position while boats are racing, the
race committee shall, if possible,
(a) replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of
similar appearance, or
(b) substitute an object displaying flag M and make repetitive
sound signals.

The rules do not allow a boat to round the prior position of a mark. If the leeward mark drifts downwind by 50 feet, you have to sail 50 feet further.

 

[Mambo Kings]

It doesn't say that; it says:


If the mark has moved and the RC has not replaced it or substituted it, then the mark is still the mark, wherever it happens to be.
In the case described if as soon as the mark moved the RC deployed a pin boat with an M flag then that pin boat would immediately become the mark. But until the RC has replaced or substritued there is no 'virtual mark' in the original spot that has to be obeyed.

sorry....we double posted the same thing.

John is right....which means....so am I

 

[Jethrow]

The rules do not allow a boat to round the prior position of a mark. If the leeward mark drifts downwind by 50 feet, you have to sail 50 feet further.

Yes, I remember chasing the bottom mark in an International 14 down the St Lawrence Seaway as it drifted downstream in the current, knowing that we would probably catch it but there was no way in hell the Laser II fleet following us would. Also knowing the race would be blown off before they all got to Montreal!

Edit: Maybe it was Fireballs, we were sailing out of Brockville I think...

 

[shanghaisailor]

@shanghaisailor are you saying the OP's question relates to an event sailed at the Royal Tay YC and you have specific knowledge of the event the OP was referencing and the SI's included language about a transit for the starting line?

Or are you talking about your own experience with transits for starting lines?

A bit of a thread drift.

It was not specific to OP case but thought people might like to be aware that, if included in the SI's the start line could be defined as per the sample I posted. A similar line in SI's can be found at many clubs' generic (season long) SI's. I just used my experience in the RTYC as an example

In standard/sample SI's (see Appendix S 9.2) the start line is between a 'staff' on the committee boat and the starting mark. Note, they neither call it a 'pin' or 'outer distance'. It is just a sample and the layout of a start line is not defined in the RRS

Case 28 touches on a starting mark being moved by the actions of a boat and may be of interest. It states "The fact a starting mark has been moved for whatever reason does not relieve a boat of her obligation to start" (see definition of start).

If she was OCS she needs to return completely to the non-course side of the 'starting line' so I would suggest that it was her good fortune that she would have less distance to return because the starting line had been moved by being hooked by another boat. Perhaps needs a Q & A request to the WS Rules Committee as the combination of RRS 29.1 & Case 28 would point towards that.

I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time

 

[EYESAILOR]

A bit of a thread drift.

I'm shocked!

 

[antiussentiment]

It does not say that:
What it does say is

34 MARK MISSING
If a mark is missing or out of position while boats are racing, the
race committee shall, if possible,
(a) replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of
similar appearance, or
(b) substitute an object displaying flag M and make repetitive
sound signals.

The rules do not allow a boat to round the prior position of a mark. If the leeward mark drifts downwind by 50 feet, you have to sail 50 feet further.

Errggh, My bad. How did i miss-comprehend that so badly?
I seriously should have had my morning coffee before getting the RRS out and reading that.

Maybe it's our clubs SI's that say if a marks missing, do your best to round the place you believe it was?

 

[shanghaisailor]

I'm shocked!

Well everyone else does it and a minor drift compared to some EYESAILOR

 

[Brass]

A bit of a thread drift.

I'm shocked!

If a thread drifts, rule 34 requires that SA shall, if possible,
(a) replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of
similar appearance, or
(b) substitute an object displaying flag M and make repetitive
sound signals.

 

[sailor-cfn]

In this case, the PRO's better option after a start if the mark is moved by a competitor after the gun is to abandon. It does not really fit the criteria for a general recall. The effect is the same.

I have a question about abandonment. Imagine the situation where the OP's fleet was the 3rd started, and the two other fleets were still racing: how can the RC abandon the OP's race and not the others?

The RRS state that to abandon the race, the RC must fly flag "N"; the description under the image of the flag (at the beginning of the rule book) states that flying "N" means that "All races that have started are abandoned." That all of them are abandoned makes sense, as otherwise there is no way for someone racing to know if their particular race was abandoned or not. However, it seems like there are many situations where the RC would want to abandon for just one, or maybe a subset, of the fleets racing.

 

[JohnMB]

If a thread drifts, rule 34 requires that SA shall, if possible,
(a) replace it in its correct position or substitute a new one of
similar appearance, or
(b) substitute an object displaying flag M and make repetitive
sound signals.

Let's talk about Scottish Independence then.

 

[Brass]

I have a question about abandonment. Imagine the situation where the OP's fleet was the 3rd started, and the two other fleets were still racing: how can the RC abandon the OP's race and not the others?

The RRS state that to abandon the race, the RC must fly flag "N"; the description under the image of the flag (at the beginning of the rule book) states that flying "N" means that "All races that have started are abandoned." That all of them are abandoned makes sense, as otherwise there is no way for someone racing to know if their particular race was abandoned or not. However, it seems like there are many situations where the RC would want to abandon for just one, or maybe a subset, of the fleets racing.

Theoretically to abandon the race just started and not others the race committee displays Flag N over Class Flag with three sound signals.

RRS Race Signals
When a visual signal is displayed over a class flag, fleet flat, event flat or race area flag, the signal applies only to that class, fleet or race area.

Good luck with that.

If you do that half the competitors in the preceding races will hear three sounds, look at the Race Committee Vessel, see Flag N, flying highest, probably not see the class flag, and cease racing.

If its me as RO, if I want to pull this race back, I'm going to decide that the pin getting caught on a boat was an error inthe starting procedure and quickly signal General Recall.

29.2. General Recall
When at the starting signal the race committee is unable to identify boats that are on the course side of the starting line or to which rule 30 applies, or there has been an error in the starting procedure, the race committee may signal a general recall (display the First Substitute with two sounds). The warning signal for a new start for the recalled class shall be made one minute after the First Substitute is removed (one sound), and the starts for any succeeding classes shall follow the new start.

The actions required of boats in the race just started on N over Class Flag and GR are the same 'The warning signal will be made 1 minute after removal', but boats in other divisions that have started can't possibly think tha GR applies to them.

 

[TT1317]

In the event of an OCS, the rule states that the boat shall return to the pre-start side of the start line. But how exactly is the "start line" defined?
I can't find the official text that gives this definition. But it seems to me that the line is defined by 2 points and that these 2 points must be fixed (so anchored), they can't move during the start sequence. If the pin end is no longer fixed (because it is carried away by a boat), the start line no longer exists. And in this case, shouldn't the start be cancelled?

 

[Brass]

In the event of an OCS, the rule states that the boat shall return to the pre-start side of the start line. But how exactly is the "start line" defined?
I can't find the official text that gives this definition. But it seems to me that the line is defined by 2 points and that these 2 points must be fixed (so anchored), they can't move during the start sequence. If the pin end is no longer fixed (because it is carried away by a boat), the start line no longer exists. And in this case, shouldn't the start be cancelled?

Rule J2.1(6) requires that the SI include descriptions of the starting and finishing lines.

Yes, other than movement around their moorings under wind and tide and the impact of boats, starting marks are expected to remain in constant positions.

Rule 27.2 covers deliberate movement
No later than the preparatory signal, the race committee may move a starting mark.

Just because a starting mark moves, you can't infer that the mark or the starting line, or boats obligations with respect to them cease to exist.

Rule 34 expressly contemplates unintentional movement of marks.

The race committee may, after the starting signal, signal General Recall because of an error in the starting procedure (rule 29.2) or abandon the race for any reason directly affecting the competition (rule 32.1(d)). Note the word 'may': these actions are discretionary to the race committee.

 

[fastyacht]

I used to set floating triangular courses in the tideway so that the Optimists didn't have to fight the current!

 

[EYESAILOR]

But it seems to me that the line is defined by 2 points and that these 2 points must be fixed (so anchored), they can't move during the start sequence. If the pin end is no longer fixed (because it is carried away by a boat), the start line no longer exists. And in this case, shouldn't the start be cancelled?

The 505 class would disagree with you, By your definition every start in every world championship ever hosted by the 505 class in the last 20 years would be cancelled. They think that a fixed pin end is an out of date idea.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Theoretically to abandon the race just started and not others the race committee displays Flag N over Class Flag with three sound signals.

RRS Race Signals
When a visual signal is displayed over a class flag, fleet flat, event flat or race area flag, the signal applies only to that class, fleet or race area.

Good luck with that.

If you do that half the competitors in the preceding races will hear three sounds, look at the Race Committee Vessel, see Flag N, flying highest, probably not see the class flag, and cease racing.

If its me as RO, if I want to pull this race back, I'm going to decide that the pin getting caught on a boat was an error inthe starting procedure and quickly signal General Recall.

29.2. General Recall
When at the starting signal the race committee is unable to identify boats that are on the course side of the starting line or to which rule 30 applies, or there has been an error in the starting procedure, the race committee may signal a general recall (display the First Substitute with two sounds). The warning signal for a new start for the recalled class shall be made one minute after the First Substitute is removed (one sound), and the starts for any succeeding classes shall follow the new start.

The actions required of boats in the race just started on N over Class Flag and GR are the same 'The warning signal will be made 1 minute after removal', but boats in other divisions that have started can't possibly think tha GR applies to them.

In theory hoisting the general recall due to a competitor error (hooking the pin) rather than an error in the starting procedure would be an error on the part of the RC. If all the boats started cleanly and the RC can identify which boat was over, they should let the start proceed. If the line was skewed 60 degrees to port in the final minute then a GR may in some cases be justified.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Let's talk about Scottish Independence then.
View attachment 543642

Shanghai would be thrilled to discuss Scottish independence. Pleased dont encourage him.

 

[fastyacht]

The 505 class would disagree with you, By your definition every start in every world championship ever hosted by the 505 class in the last 20 years would be cancelled. They think that a fixed pin end is an out of date idea.

Yes true except there is a fixed "pin" it is the committeeboat that keeps sailing on :-D