Rules question - defining the start line after the start.

Brass

Super Anarchist
2,759
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In theory hoisting the general recall due to a competitor error (hooking the pin) rather than an error in the starting procedure would be an error on the part of the RC. If all the boats started cleanly and the RC can identify which boat was over, they should let the start proceed. If the line was skewed 60 degrees to port in the final minute then a GR may in some cases be justified.

I said

... if I want to pull this race back ...

I agree I wouldn't want to abandon or GR if all but the OCS boat and the one hooked up on the mark started ok.

Rule 29.2 doesn’t talk about whether its a competitor error or a race committee error: it just refers to an error in the starting procedure.

OK, suppose it comes to a redress hearing and suppose the protest committee concludes that signalling GR was an improper action. What boat's score or place has been made significantly worse? None. No boat is entitled to redress.
 

sailor-cfn

Member
248
76
Theoretically to abandon the race just started and not others the race committee displays Flag N over Class Flag with three sound signals.

RRS Race Signals
When a visual signal is displayed over a class flag, fleet flat, event flat or race area flag, the signal applies only to that class, fleet or race area.
Ha, literally the 4th sentence in the document - never read that before ever. Thanks.
 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
3,116
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Shanghai, China
In the event of an OCS, the rule states that the boat shall return to the pre-start side of the start line. But how exactly is the "start line" defined?
I can't find the official text that gives this definition. But it seems to me that the line is defined by 2 points and that these 2 points must be fixed (so anchored), they can't move during the start sequence. If the pin end is no longer fixed (because it is carried away by a boat), the start line no longer exists. And in this case, shouldn't the start be cancelled?
See Case 28 - I think it could be referred to in this instance
I said



I agree I wouldn't want to abandon or GR if all but the OCS boat and the one hooked up on the mark started ok.

Rule 29.2 doesn’t talk about whether its a competitor error or a race committee error: it just refers to an error in the starting procedure.

OK, suppose it comes to a redress hearing and suppose the protest committee concludes that signalling GR was an improper action. What boat's score or place has been made significantly worse? None. No boat is entitled to redress.

The starting procedure is the responsibility of the RC and it refers to an RC error only.
 

JeremiahBlatz

New member
1
0
New York
If I were the race committee, I'd say fine, you started, but you received outside help from the boat that snagged the mark, and protest you under rule 41. I'd then admonish you next time to refuse outside help by sailing back to where the line was.
 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
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In theory hoisting the general recall due to a competitor error (hooking the pin) rather than an error in the starting procedure would be an error on the part of the RC. If all the boats started cleanly and the RC can identify which boat was over, they should let the start proceed. If the line was skewed 60 degrees to port in the final minute then a GR may in some cases be justified.
What part of 'or there has been an error in the starting procedure....' did you miss in 29.2
 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
1,402
48
In the event of an OCS, the rule states that the boat shall return to the pre-start side of the start line. But how exactly is the "start line" defined?
I can't find the official text that gives this definition. But it seems to me that the line is defined by 2 points and that these 2 points must be fixed (so anchored), they can't move during the start sequence. If the pin end is no longer fixed (because it is carried away by a boat), the start line no longer exists. And in this case, shouldn't the start be cancelled?
Where does it say they must be fixed/anchored? And anchored marks move all the time. Wind/tide/waves/boat wakes all move the mark, same with the RC boat.
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,505
1,937
Rule 29.2 doesn’t talk about whether its a competitor error or a race committee error: it just refers to an error in the starting procedure.

Except in rabbit starts, the competitor is not running the starting procedure.
If we allowed competitor errors to cause a general recall, we would never get a start away.

"O sh*t, Brass really messed up his starting procedure, he was 20 seconds late getting to the line.....must have hit the wrong button on his watch...better sound a general recall"

No, 29 is NOT referring to the competitor's starting procedure, it is referring to the RC's starting procedure. If the RC mistakenly drops the class flag at 1 minute and leaves the Prep up. If the line is so skewed that boats can barely cross on starboard and they didnt hit the postponement. If the line judge was sighting down the ensign staff not the pole holding the orange flag etc etc.

I understood why you reach for GR rather than N but technically, if the reason you are stopping a race is an unfair advantage not an RC error, it should be N. But heck I had an RC hoist the postponement last weekend after the gun....I guess it works. We all came back to the line. We knew what they were trying to do.

It is much more annoying when RC use the wrong signals to finish boats in the wrong place. That is why we have a Moosehead.
 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
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Theoretically to abandon the race just started and not others the race committee displays Flag N over Class Flag with three sound signals.

RRS Race Signals
When a visual signal is displayed over a class flag, fleet flat, event flat or race area flag, the signal applies only to that class, fleet or race area.

Good luck with that.

If you do that half the competitors in the preceding races will hear three sounds, look at the Race Committee Vessel, see Flag N, flying highest, probably not see the class flag, and cease racing.

If its me as RO, if I want to pull this race back, I'm going to decide that the pin getting caught on a boat was an error inthe starting procedure and quickly signal General Recall.

29.2. General Recall
When at the starting signal the race committee is unable to identify boats that are on the course side of the starting line or to which rule 30 applies, or there has been an error in the starting procedure, the race committee may signal a general recall (display the First Substitute with two sounds). The warning signal for a new start for the recalled class shall be made one minute after the First Substitute is removed (one sound), and the starts for any succeeding classes shall follow the new start.

The actions required of boats in the race just started on N over Class Flag and GR are the same 'The warning signal will be made 1 minute after removal', but boats in other divisions that have started can't possibly think tha GR applies to them.
I still disagree. There was no error justifying a general. Abandon or let it go is still my call.
 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
I still disagree. There was no error justifying a general. Abandon or let it go is still my call.
It appears that only one boat was impacted by the incident. I think that boat could still lodge a scoring inquiry challenging the RC's method for determining whether she entirely returned & started properly. If it should be based on the moved pin it sounds like they did, and if it's based on the original position of the line then I think RC's judgment is subject to question (more so than it would be if the starting marks had remained in place).

Long shot given that the RC already has an interpretation that they like backed by an IJ, but if the boat wants to continue the conversation that's an avenue. Don't see any way it gets to a hearing at this point so the boat may just have to live with it.

With only one boat impacted it's hard to justify abandoning after the race is in the books.
 
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I have now seen a short video of the start.......don't ask how.

The start line was extraordinarily heavily pin biased. The OP looked OCS to me at the gun. To give you a flavor of how pin biased, if they had kept going on starboard close hauled all the way to the pin I am not sure they could have made it.

This is why, dragging the pin even a couple of boat lengths, could seriously affect the line, and why even quite a small dip would get the OP to the pre-start side of the line.

I could not tell if the OP cleared the line. The dragged mark was astern of the boat hung up on the mark. If the OP dipped at all, it was the slightest of dips. It would have been hard to get an accurate sight line for the helm so he had to go by his bow man's call.

If the RC had said, we watched you and you failed to clear the line. Then I think the OP would concur with their call. However if the RC said, we were sighting down the original position of the line and" you did not go back far enough to clear that....we dont know if you cleared the line created by the dragged pin", then the OP would have gotten redress.

What is clear is that the OP had won the start. The only boat further down the line was hung up on the pin. When he tacked, every boat in the fleet was to leeward. In hindsight, with such a comfortable lead at the start, should he have given up 1/2 a boat length by a more aggressive dip, or sailed further along the line to ensure it was clear to everyone that he was behind the line? Sure! But we all know what it is like starting in a breeze with 60 degree left windshift. When you win a start like that, every corpuscle in your body is itching to slam in the first tack and put it in the bag before it shifts right again.

If this had been a championship, with a shift like that in the final minute, the RC would probably have sounded a GR. But this was one start in a sequence of starts. The RC, in their mind had one boat easily identified that had hit the mark and one boat OCS, and they didnt want to screw up the sequence for all the remaining classes .

The outcome would not be difficult. If the RC were sighting from the Signal Boat to the pin in its new position, and felt the OP didnt clear, then he was OCS. If the RC were sighting at an imaginary mark , then he would get redress.....even if he had not quite got back to the pre-start side.

After looking at the video, do I think the OP got back to the pre-start side based on correct definition of the line? I cannot tell.
But that was not the OP's question. His question is what should be used to judge the line for a boat returning from OCS? The answer is not an imaginary mark.
 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
I have now seen a short video of the start.......don't ask how.

The start line was extraordinarily heavily pin biased. The OP looked OCS to me at the gun. To give you a flavor of how pin biased, if they had kept going on starboard close hauled all the way to the pin I am not sure they could have made it.

This is why, dragging the pin even a couple of boat lengths, could seriously affect the line, and why even quite a small dip would get the OP to the pre-start side of the line.

I could not tell if the OP cleared the line. The dragged mark was astern of the boat hung up on the mark. If the OP dipped at all, it was the slightest of dips. It would have been hard to get an accurate sight line for the helm so he had to go by his bow man's call.

If the RC had said, we watched you and you failed to clear the line. Then I think the OP would concur with their call. However if the RC said, we were sighting down the original position of the line and" you did not go back far enough to clear that....we dont know if you cleared the line created by the dragged pin", then the OP would have gotten redress.

What is clear is that the OP had won the start. The only boat further down the line was hung up on the pin. When he tacked, every boat in the fleet was to leeward. In hindsight, with such a comfortable lead at the start, should he have given up 1/2 a boat length by a more aggressive dip, or sailed further along the line to ensure it was clear to everyone that he was behind the line? Sure! But we all know what it is like starting in a breeze with 60 degree left windshift. When you win a start like that, every corpuscle in your body is itching to slam in the first tack and put it in the bag before it shifts right again.

If this had been a championship, with a shift like that in the final minute, the RC would probably have sounded a GR. But this was one start in a sequence of starts. The RC, in their mind had one boat easily identified that had hit the mark and one boat OCS, and they didnt want to screw up the sequence for all the remaining classes .

The outcome would not be difficult. If the RC were sighting from the Signal Boat to the pin in its new position, and felt the OP didnt clear, then he was OCS. If the RC were sighting at an imaginary mark , then he would get redress.....even if he had not quite got back to the pre-start side.

After looking at the video, do I think the OP got back to the pre-start side based on correct definition of the line? I cannot tell.
But that was not the OP's question. His question is what should be used to judge the line for a boat returning from OCS? The answer is not an imaginary mark.
I tend to agree. Even with a compass bearing I don't think an RC could accurately judge whether a boat got entirely to the pre-start side of an imaginary line and then started within the bounds of that imaginary line.

And I don't feel like the imaginary line idea is supported by the rules or SI.
 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
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Shanghai, China
I tend to agree. Even with a compass bearing I don't think an RC could accurately judge whether a boat got entirely to the pre-start side of an imaginary line and then started within the bounds of that imaginary line.

And I don't feel like the imaginary line idea is supported by the rules or SI.
Completely correct TJSoCal & @Mambo Kings. It would be absolutely absurd for a "guessed start line" to be valid. It seems ironic that WS has not considered this eventuality in any of their manuals (Judges or Race Management.

The only reference I have been able to find, and have mention up-post is WS Case 28 where in the pre-amble it states that "The fact that a starting mark has moved, for whatever reason, does not relieve a boat of her obligation to 'start'. ". In other words, if one looks at the definition of "Start" A boat starts when her hull having been entirely on th epre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal etc etc.

If the SI's defined the starting line as between the committee boat and the defined starting mark and she returned so that her hull was behind that line (wherever the starting mark was) then she returned and exonerated her OCS. Any other decision by the RC is erroneous.

It is quite surprising that there is NO guidance (that I could find) in any of the manuals as the starting mark =can go walkabout for a multitude of reasons.

A compass bearing is only relevant when actually setting the mark - where it is is where it is and the only relevant line is the ACTUAL line, not an imaginary line. TJSoCal, you are correct there is no such thing as an imaginary line in the RRS.
 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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there is no such thing as an imaginary line in the RRS.

There used to be two such things in the RRS. Can you remember the definitions of those lines? Bonus point if you can remember the rule number!

Ooo! OOO-ooOOoo! I know this!!
The "imaginary line" athwartship from the aftmost point which determines clear ahead/astern VS overlapped... -and- the "imaginary line" of a circle around a mark at 3 boat-lengths radius.

You may also be thinking of the "mast abeam" imaginary line. I ain't touchin' that one.

Perhaps now we should move the discussion from imaginary lines to hallucinatory lines?
 
There used to be two such things in the RRS. Can you remember the definitions of those lines? Bonus point if you can remember the rule number!
I can do one of them:

"A windward yacht sailing no higher than a leeward yacht is mast abeam when her helmsman’s line of sight abeam from his normal station is forward of the leeward yacht’s main mast. A windward yacht sailing higher than a leeward yacht is mast abeam when her helmsman’s line of sight abeam from his normal station would be if she were sailing no higher forward of the leeward yacht’s mainmast.

Rule number? Rule 39.2 and Definitions.

What do I win?

Do I have to share the prize with Steam?
 
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Perhaps now we should move the discussion from imaginary lines to hallucinatory lines?
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