Rules question - defining the start line after the start.

Ooo! OOO-ooOOoo! I know this!!
The "imaginary line" athwartship from the aftmost point which determines clear ahead/astern VS overlapped...
Sloppy but I still think you share the prize.

The precise answer is
"when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam
from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal
position
. "

Rule? Definition of Clear Astern.

Interestingly I would not have got that one because I was trying to think of old rules that had been phased out. You are right we still have one imaginary hallucinatory line in the RRS

Rule 18 and the definitions do not describe a line around the mark.....they describe a "zone" or "area".
 
Oooh, I've thought of a third imaginary line. I think this one is directly relevant.

Rule 21.1
A boat sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions

Rule 29
The flag shall be displayed until the hull of each such boat has been completely on the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions,

The extension of the starting line is an imaginary line. It is not bound by a mark.

Does the week's vacation include flights? Do I have to share a room with @Steam Flyer (because that would be a non-starter)
 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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I can do one of them:

"A windward yacht sailing no higher than a leeward yacht is mast abeam when her helmsman’s line of sight abeam from his normal station is forward of the leeward yacht’s main mast. A windward yacht sailing higher than a leeward yacht is mast abeam when her helmsman’s line of sight abeam from his normal station would be if she were sailing no higher forward of the leeward yacht’s mainmast.

Rule number? Rule 39.2 and Definitions.

What do I win?

Do I have to share the prize with Steam?

You're older than I thought. And you definitely win the prize, more & better answers than mine.
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
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That’s what a general recall is.
You can only hoist a Postponement before the start. You can only hoist a General Recall after a race has started.

If you hoist a postponement after the start, the fleet will keep racing because the postponement either applies to the next fleet to start , or to the next start.

Anyone OCS does not have to return to restart unless either the X is flown or a General Recall (or an Abandonment flag....but that will have a different implication for the OCS depending on what flag was flown at the Prep signal)
 

shanghaisailor

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Shanghai, China
The 'lines' are actually not "imaginary". I think it is the dictionary that needs to be explored not the RRS. Dictionary - imaginary = existing only in the imagination and the RRS states in the 'Introduction' that words are used in the sense ordinarily understood in general use. . The line in the Z flag rule is defined in the rule and a good umpire - sorry, on the water judge - would make sure they had at least a solid idea of that line, preferably line of sight. The 'Zone' similarly is defined, not imaginary and again a good umpire team will ensure that there is a good line of sight of the edges whether 3 or 2 hull lengths - and is the prime reason an umpire will position themselves perpendicular to the edge of the zone or to the stern of the lead boat if an overlap is likely. Abeam has a clear definition in nautical use so Clear Astern and Clear Ahead is also defined not imaginary.

I think Mast Abeam disappeared from the rule book in the mid to late 1990's as I remember it being used with my first 'boat with a lid' (probably against me as having one of the smaller boats in the fleet it would have been me defending being rolled) but not with my last boat before I came to China (2000) so perhaps the rules re-write for the run to the Sydney Olympics which would be 1997-2000. (Some assumptions there but the best I can remember.)

Again it was not 'imaginary' but a clear relationship between the leeward mast and the windward helmsperson in their normal helming position.

I can't accurately remember the rule number so no bonus point but hasn't been relevant for 20+ years although I have heard it on the race course somewhat more recently than that. I just gave the caller a rather quizzical look.
 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
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You can only hoist a Postponement before the start. You can only hoist a General Recall after a race has started.

If you hoist a postponement after the start, the fleet will keep racing because the postponement either applies to the next fleet to start , or to the next start.

Anyone OCS does not have to return to restart unless either the X is flown or a General Recall (or an Abandonment flag....but that will have a different implication for the OCS depending on what flag was flown at the Prep signal)
Don't forget the sound signal. If the RC hoists X with no sound signal they are liable to get a request for redress which would likely be given if the other conditions for redress were met as their action was improper
 

TJSoCal

Super Anarchist
Don't forget the sound signal. If the RC hoists X with no sound signal they are liable to get a request for redress which would likely be given if the other conditions for redress were met as their action was improper
True unless the boat knows she was OCS in which case lack of a flag or sound signal is still an improper omission but does not earn redress. It’s that pesky "through no fault of her own" deal.

I think there’s a Case, too lazy to look it up.
 
The 'lines' are actually not "imaginary". I think it is the dictionary that needs to be explored not the RRS. Dictionary - imaginary = existing only in the imagination and the RRS states in the 'Introduction' that words are used in the sense ordinarily understood in general use. . The line in the Z flag rule is defined in the rule and a good umpire - sorry, on the water judge - would make sure they had at least a solid idea of that line, preferably line of sight. The 'Zone' similarly is defined, not imaginary and again a good umpire team will ensure that there is a good line of sight of the edges whether 3 or 2 hull lengths - and is the prime reason an umpire will position themselves perpendicular to the edge of the zone or to the stern of the lead boat if an overlap is likely. Abeam has a clear definition in nautical use so Clear Astern and Clear Ahead is also defined not imaginary.

I think Mast Abeam disappeared from the rule book in the mid to late 1990's as I remember it being used with my first 'boat with a lid' (probably against me as having one of the smaller boats in the fleet it would have been me defending being rolled) but not with my last boat before I came to China (2000) so perhaps the rules re-write for the run to the Sydney Olympics which would be 1997-2000. (Some assumptions there but the best I can remember.)

Again it was not 'imaginary' but a clear relationship between the leeward mast and the windward helmsperson in their normal helming position.

I can't accurately remember the rule number so no bonus point but hasn't been relevant for 20+ years although I have heard it on the race course somewhat more recently than that. I just gave the caller a rather quizzical look.
We were using your definition of an imaginary line.
You defined the imaginary line as a bearing from the committee boat as opposed to a line between two points (between committee and the moving start mark)

The rule regrading match racing is a 90 degree angle from the either end of the start line.
The mast abeam line is a line of sight bearing from the helmsperson, and a very imprecise one at that.
As Steam pointed out the line defining clear astern is a bearing not a line between two points.

I cant remember the others we put up.

Anyway....it was Eye's quiz, so Im interested in who she thinks has scored points.

As stated before the start line defined in the SI was not a bearing, it was a line between 2 points, so that is the line the OP had to return to and not to a line defined by the bearing from the ctee boat of the original start line.
 
Don't forget the sound signal. If the RC hoists X with no sound signal they are liable to get a request for redress which would likely be given if the other conditions for redress were met as their action was improper
X does not require a "sound signal" it only requires a "sound".

The starting sequence is defined by "sound signals" (although the absence of sound signals is not grounds for redress) but X only requires a sound. Some have wondered whether breaking wind would suffice. :)
 

shanghaisailor

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X does not require a "sound signal" it only requires a "sound".
So the sound is not a signal? Splitting hairs Mambo

And a line doesn't have to have two ends does it?

BTW the DEFINITION of Clear Astern states "behind a line abeam etc etc so not a bearing at allbut perhaps you and Steam know better than World Sailing

The line I assume you are referring to is the '4 minute line'. Boats have to be outside a line at 90 degrees to the starting line. The starboard tack boat is usually policed by the committee boat with any infringement handed on to the umpires who then signal and flag the infringement. The port tacker is policed by the umpires usually in a RIB lying as close as they can judge to directly 90 degrees below the port end buoy.

Most match racing events either don't use or can't afford the accurate telematics to be exactly 90 degrees, not every event is the WMRT or AC with huge budgets. Add to that in any seaway in a RIB where position is being held using the thrust of an engine it is not an easy task. Mark you I could be wrong, I am a relative beginner with only a few races under my belt although many have been alongside AC experienced umpires who have been mentoring me for a number of years. Try it sometime. In fact read the manual, it is actually quite interesting and informative.

Digging deep mast abeam was (not is) - well it is in the title really. The rule actually said "line of sight abeam" Terms as in general nautical use. something is "abeam' when it is directly at right angles to the keel of the vessel (or person) making the sighting. It is NOT (or was not) a line of sight "bearing" except one of 90 degrees to the keel or perhaps the Royal Navy's definitions are wrong too, it was them who drilled those into me 40 years ago when I was a humble Snotty

And not MY definition of an imaginary line, it is those good people at Oxford University Press so perhaps you know better than them too.

It is not really a case of an 'imaginary' line at all as the line WAS originally there but without a starting mark marking the outer end it is no better than an 'estimated original' line as it has been altered not only up the course but potentially shortened or lengthened depending on the tack of the boat which hooked it.

I am going to email my rules mentors - and they are a rare breed who are both International Umpires and International Judges - with the following.

Boat A is clearly OCS and signalled as such. However Boat B hooks the outer distance mark and drags it to windward. Simple question, does Boat A exonerate itself by returning behind the 'now' start line between the dragged starting mark and the committee boat or does Boat A have to return behind the now estimated starting line original position?

Whatever they say I will post, whether I am right or I am wrong. I use it as a learning tool when I make an error.

See ya on the water - I might be the one with the flag & whistle

SS

PS, yeah, I know I am setting myself up if I am wrong, gotta take a risk sometimes
 

Thistle1678

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Ugh, I just recalled a start where this happened in my regatta, the boat drug the mark so far, we couldn't find it for a few minutes!
 

shanghaisailor

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Found it. Rule 4.1
At a boat’s preparatory signal, her hull shall be completely outside
the line that is at a 90º angle to the starting line through the starting
mark at her assigned end.
You mean you had to look it up? Quelle damage!

There is nothing imaginary about a line, which if any part of your hull is on the wrong side of gets you an automatic penalty and hands your opponent an immediate advantage and there is still 4 minutes to go before the starting signal.

Concise Oxford Dictionary : imaginary = something that exists only in the imagination
Racing Rules of Sailing : Other words and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use.

I would have imagined that if you did any serious racing you would have known that.
 

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