Rules question - defining the start line after the start.

So the sound is not a signal? Splitting hairs Mambo
Didn't the smiley face give it away?

If you refer to USS Appeal #47, Musical Hum vs RC, the appeals committee confirmed that sounds such as breaking wind do not constitute a sound for purposes of signals given from the signal boat. Confirmed by World Sailing in Case #130.

BTW the DEFINITION of Clear Astern states "behind a line abeam etc etc so not a bearing at allbut perhaps you and Steam know better than World Sailing
Ermm. Please refer to my post above where I gave the full and correct definition. We don't know better than World sailing but perhaps we know.....

The line I assume you are referring to is the '4 minute line'.
Rule 4.1 C . Posted above. There is match racing almost every weekend at Oyster Bay. Intimately familiar with the rule.
Most match racing events either don't use or can't afford the accurate telematics to be exactly 90 degrees, Mark you I could be wrong, I am a relative beginner
So they "estimate" the line. Surely this fits your meaning of "estimated line" or "imaginary line" that you use interchangeably in your posts
Completely correct TJSoCal & @Mambo Kings. It would be absolutely absurd for a "guessed start line" to be valid.

A compass bearing is only relevant when actually setting the mark - where it is is where it is and the only relevant line is the ACTUAL line, not an imaginary line. ... there is no such thing as an imaginary line in the RRS.


.

The rule actually said "line of sight abeam" ,, It is NOT ... a line of sight "bearing"

And not MY definition of an imaginary line, it is those good people at Oxford University Press so perhaps you know better than them too.
Oxford Dictionary. Definition of bearing:

"the direction or position of something, or the direction of movement, relative to a fixed point"

It is not really a case of an 'imaginary' line at all as the line WAS originally there but without a starting mark marking the outer end it is no better than an 'estimated original' line as it has been altered not only up the course but potentially shortened or lengthened depending on the tack of the boat which hooked it.
Okay, so backing off the phrase "imaginary line" that you used in your post, I think Eye is correct that there are at least 2 examples of estimated lines in the RRS

I am going to email my rules mentors - and they are a rare breed who are both International Umpires and International Judges - with the following.

.
Why bother? The discussion has reached the correct conclusion

The line the OP had to return to to restart was the start line. The start line was defined in the SIs
The SIs defined the start line between the flag on the signal vessel and the ODM. That applies where ever the ODM moves to.

If your Rules Mentor is any good he will reply that he cannot give you an answer because you haven't supplied him with a copy of the SIs. He/She also cannot give you an answer, only an opinion, because there is no case.

See ya on the water - I might be the one with the flag & whistle
SS
Good Point.

I would like to go on record that I agree with absolutely everything you have written :)
 

shanghaisailor

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Didn't the smiley face give it away?

If you refer to USS Appeal #47, Musical Hum vs RC, the appeals committee confirmed that sounds such as breaking wind do not constitute a sound for purposes of signals given from the signal boat. Confirmed by World Sailing in Case #130.


Ermm. Please refer to my post above where I gave the full and correct definition. We don't know better than World sailing but perhaps we know.....


Rule 4.1 C . Posted above. There is match racing almost every weekend at Oyster Bay. Intimately familiar with the rule.

So they "estimate" the line. Surely this fits your meaning of "estimated line" or "imaginary line" that you use interchangeably in your posts




Oxford Dictionary. Definition of bearing:

"the direction or position of something, or the direction of movement, relative to a fixed point"


Okay, so backing off the phrase "imaginary line" that you used in your post, I think Eye is correct that there are at least 2 examples of estimated lines in the RRS


Why bother? The discussion has reached the correct conclusion

The line the OP had to return to to restart was the start line. The start line was defined in the SIs
The SIs defined the start line between the flag on the signal vessel and the ODM. That applies where ever the ODM moves to.

If your Rules Mentor is any good he will reply that he cannot give you an answer because you haven't supplied him with a copy of the SIs. He/She also cannot give you an answer, only an opinion, because there is no case.


Good Point.

I would like to go on record that I agree with absolutely everything you have written :)
Hi Mambo

Oh, they are good, I can assure you and he CAN give a qualified answer, not an opinion.

I got an answer. Firstly, and obviously, it depends on the SIs but the standard SIs state the start line is between the committee boat and the starting mark, even if the starting mark is not in its original position due to drifting, being hooked or any other reason it would not alter the definition of the start line.

Pretty obvious really.

You are right though, it would be interesting to see the SI's from the event/race.

EYESAILOR is of course correct about some lines being estimates, hopefully best estimates. The overlap, edge of the zone and 90 degrees to the start line (in match racing) immediately spring to mind but for them to be anything other would, at least, cost measurement devices or methods beyond the budget of most sailors and/or events

Interesting discussion though

Cheers

SS
 
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I got an answer. Firstly, and obviously, it depends on the SIs but the standard SIs state the start line is between the committee boat and the starting mark, even if the starting mark is not in its original position due to drifting, being hooked or any other reason it would not alter the definition of the start line.

You are right though, it would be interesting to see the SI's from the event/race.
The event did not use the standard SIs template. The OP posted the SIs.
Nevertheless I am glad that your mentor's opinion concurred with ours.

Part of the WS SIs template is a checklist to make sure the OA includes the relevant clauses. The SIs should define the start line. World Sailing recognizes that there are many different forms of valid start lines ranging from the Royal Yacht Squadron's transit line used in Cowes week, through the rabbit start used in all 505 world championships, to the Olympic start lines which use a RC boat on both ends of the line. The important thing is to include a definition of the start line in the SIs. WS chooses to illustrate this by using the example of a start line between a signal boat and a starting mark, because it is common.

The correct response to the OPs initial inquiry and SS's question was to ask for the SIs definition of the startline. We got that. It is not the best definition because it mixes terms for marks. But I believe we reached the right opinion , and so did SS's mentor.
 




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