Rules Question Mark Room

tailgunner

Member
330
0
Heading downwind at about 6-8 boat lengths from the mark we started to establish an overlap with another competitor and he decided that his best course of action was to take us up. In doing so he allowed us to cruise over him firmly cementing our overlap at 3 boat lengths. At this time he was still holding us above the mark and I was asking him to come down and give us room to round. He finally came down to round the mark at about one boat length and then came up hard as we were still heading down to clear the mark he had left about one boat width, perhaps one and a half boat widths between him and the mark but due to him holding us up we were unable to maneuver into that space without either hitting him or the mark. I opted to avoid the collision and hit the mark knowing that I would be exonerated in the protest hearing. (there may have been an option 3 to take his transom and protest but there was a competitor approaching to leeward that I could not see and did not want to get into a collision) As soon as we hit the mark I hailed protest grabbed the flag and started waving it. As all of my crew were occupied with the mark rounding it didn't get to the backstay and the competitor who had held his chute until half way through the mark rounding had a melt down and went from 3rd to last and I threw the flag in the cockpit as karma had gotten the better of him.

Ashore he decided to make an issue of the altercation that I had let go (he was in fact intending to protest me for hitting the mark without having hailed protest or flown a flag). I have attached a diagram (sorry for any lack of quality as it was hand drawn).

I leave it to the gurus here at SA for interpretation of how a PC would have ruled.

IMG_0584.jpg

 

tailgunner

Member
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0
if it matters they were Ensigns which are relatively slow maneuvering keelboats but we were probably going between 3 and 4 knots.

 
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Je Prefere

Anarchist
926
4
pnw
Assuming you had both protested properly, and that your diagram is correct, you should have been exonerated for hitting the mark and he tossed for not giving you enough room to round the mark. since no one actually protested properly, pc wouldn't hear it.

 

tailgunner

Member
330
0
I know that they wouldn't have heard the protest, but the other skipper won't drop it, it got pretty ugly on shore last night.

tough to draw all those instances of location, perhaps the maneuver getting back to the correct side of the mark is a bit pronounced in the drawing but where he was holding us was forcing us into the impossible maneuver of a tight and tight leeward mark rounding.

 

SemiSalt

Super Anarchist
7,789
287
WLIS
I know things can get pretty ugly in the room and it's a pain for all involved, but it's really the only place to sort things out with someone who is in bully mode and won't take no for an answer.

 

sailflat

Super Anarchist
1,084
2
Assuming you had both protested properly, and that your diagram is correct, you should have been exonerated for hitting the mark and he tossed for not giving you enough room to round the mark. since no one actually protested properly, pc wouldn't hear it.
Agreed... But I would have thought there would have been a forced gybe in there as well. Which I don't see.

 

SailChiTown

Member
228
4
Forgetting about the validity for a sec, seems like the other boat doesn't get the rules.

The moment either of you reaches the zone, the outside overlapped boat must allow room for the inside boat (you) to sail to the mark. Then, once at the mark, room for you to round the mark. If your facts are correct, he didn't allow you to sail to the mark as well as room rounding the mark.

As for the off the water stuff, this is a dead issue for the RC/PC. There wasn't a protest and nothing can be done after the fact. That being said, since you didn't protest, you can't be exonerated for hitting the mark and anyone in the race could have protected you for that. If you think you have been forced a break a rule by another boat, it is on you to protest properly just in case someone else tries to hammer you for it. That being said, if the PC had gotten a valid protest about you hitting a mark and the PC learned during that protest that another boat may have fouled you forcing you to hit the mark, the PC can protest the other boat to fix the situation.

 

John Ball

Member
231
10
BC, Canada
Assuming you had both protested properly, and that your diagram is correct, you should have been exonerated for hitting the mark and he tossed for not giving you enough room to round the mark. since no one actually protested properly, pc wouldn't hear it.
There are three questions in your OP'

1. Would I have a valid protest as I dropped the flag into the cockpit?

2. Would I be exonerated under 64.1.c (and the other boat DQ) based on my version of the facts and diagram?

3. Would the other boat have a valid protest against me?

Answer 1, 61.1a requires that you display the flag until no longer racing. You failed to do this and so your protest would be invalidated at the hearing.

Answer 2. Probably

Answer 3. As you hit the mark and appeared to be protesting the other boat, they could protest you at the end of the time limit if you did not retire and did not file your protest. However that could get them DQ as well as you.

If you filed and the protest was disallowed, then no action would be taken against either boat as any facts were found in an invalid hearing.

A third party in the race could file and you could both be DQ.

I believe that your correct action now is to request to 'retire after finishing'. Then your conscience is clear.

John

 
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chaosmaster

Super Anarchist
1,637
0
Chicago
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos

 

Christian

Super Anarchist
Assuming you had both protested properly, and that your diagram is correct, you should have been exonerated for hitting the mark and he tossed for not giving you enough room to round the mark. since no one actually protested properly, pc wouldn't hear it.
There are three questions in your OP'

1. Would I have a valid protest as I dropped the flag into the cockpit?

2. Would I be exonerated under 64.1.c (and the other boat DQ) based on my version of the facts and diagram?

3. Would the other boat have a valid protest against me?

Answer 1, 61.1a requires that you display the flag until no longer racing. You failed to do this and so your protest would be invalidated at the hearing.

Answer 2. Probably

Answer 3. As you hit the mark and appeared to be protesting the other boat, they could protest you at the end of the time limit if you did not retire and did not file your protest. However that could get them DQ as well as you.

If you filed and the protest was disallowed, then no action would be taken against either boat as any facts were found in an invalid hearing.

A third party in the race could file and you could both be DQ.

John
Not quite (on #3) Anybody that wanted to protest for hiting the buoy would have to protest immidiately on the water.

 

Christian

Super Anarchist
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos
Not really as you get exonerated from hitting the mark by another boat breaking the rules - protest or not. It is a smart choice to protest the other boat and follow through but in a potential protest it would be discovered (hopefully) that hitting the mark was a result onf another boat breaking the rules and you would be exonerated (while the other boat would get tossed)

 

John Ball

Member
231
10
BC, Canada
Not quite (on #3) Anybody that wanted to protest for hiting the buoy would have to protest immidiately on the water.
What I was suggesting was that the outside boat, seeing the protest called by I, could assume that a protest was being filed. At the time limit as no protest was filed, then O could file a protest.

John

 

Christian

Super Anarchist
Not quite (on #3) Anybody that wanted to protest for hiting the buoy would have to protest immidiately on the water.
What I was suggesting was that the outside boat, seeing the protest called by I, could assume that a protest was being filed. At the time limit as no protest was filed, then O could file a protest.

John
Nope - Well actually you can always file a protest but it would be disallowed as O didn't hail nor flew a flag immediately after the incident.

 
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John Ball

Member
231
10
BC, Canada
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos
Not really as you get exonerated from hitting the mark by another boat breaking the rules - protest or not. It is a smart choice to protest the other boat and follow through but in a potential protest it would be discovered (hopefully) that hitting the mark was a result onf another boat breaking the rules and you would be exonerated (while the other boat would get tossed)
There is no longer an 'automatic' exoneration for a breach of R31 (hitting a mark) unless something is written in the SI (to recreate the pre-2004 version of R 31). Only a PC can exonerate you (R 64.1.c). There are cases to help the PC reach a decision to exonerate.

John

 

Christian

Super Anarchist
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos
Not really as you get exonerated from hitting the mark by another boat breaking the rules - protest or not. It is a smart choice to protest the other boat and follow through but in a potential protest it would be discovered (hopefully) that hitting the mark was a result onf another boat breaking the rules and you would be exonerated (while the other boat would get tossed)
There is no longer an 'automatic' exoneration for a breach of R31 (hitting a mark) unless something is written in the SI (to recreate the pre-2004 version of R 31). Only a PC can exonerate you (R 64.1.c). There are cases to help the PC reach a decision to exonerate.

John
I'll leave you with this:

© When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled




another boat to break a rule, rule 64.1(a) does not apply



to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.

 

 

SailChiTown

Member
228
4
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos
Not really as you get exonerated from hitting the mark by another boat breaking the rules - protest or not. It is a smart choice to protest the other boat and follow through but in a potential protest it would be discovered (hopefully) that hitting the mark was a result onf another boat breaking the rules and you would be exonerated (while the other boat would get tossed)
There is no longer an 'automatic' exoneration for a breach of R31 (hitting a mark) unless something is written in the SI (to recreate the pre-2004 version of R 31). Only a PC can exonerate you (R 64.1.c). There are cases to help the PC reach a decision to exonerate.

John
I'll leave you with this:



© When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled




another boat to break a rule , rule 64.1(a) does not apply


to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.

 
Yes, but a boat doesn't officially break a rule until they do turns or the PC says so. Since no one did turns and there was no hearing, no one get exonerated.

 
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John Ball

Member
231
10
BC, Canada
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos
Not really as you get exonerated from hitting the mark by another boat breaking the rules - protest or not. It is a smart choice to protest the other boat and follow through but in a potential protest it would be discovered (hopefully) that hitting the mark was a result onf another boat breaking the rules and you would be exonerated (while the other boat would get tossed)

There is no longer an 'automatic' exoneration for a breach of R31 (hitting a mark) unless something is written in the SI (to recreate the pre-2004 version of R 31). Only a PC can exonerate you (R 64.1.c). There are cases to help the PC reach a decision to exonerate.

John
I'll leave you with this:

© When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled



 

 

 

another boat to break a rule, rule 64.1(a) does not apply



to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.

 


But R 64 is in Part B Hearings & Decisions. There must be a hearing to apply R 64; is cannot be assumed without a hearing.

John

 
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Je Prefere

Anarchist
926
4
pnw
Since you did not go through with the protest, did you do your turn for hitting th mark?

If not, you should withdraw from the race as you knowingly violated the rules (regardless of why it occurred).

Chaos
Not really as you get exonerated from hitting the mark by another boat breaking the rules - protest or not. It is a smart choice to protest the other boat and follow through but in a potential protest it would be discovered (hopefully) that hitting the mark was a result onf another boat breaking the rules and you would be exonerated (while the other boat would get tossed)
There is no longer an 'automatic' exoneration for a breach of R31 (hitting a mark) unless something is written in the SI (to recreate the pre-2004 version of R 31). Only a PC can exonerate you (R 64.1.c). There are cases to help the PC reach a decision to exonerate.

John
I'll leave you with this:



© When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled




another boat to break a rule , rule 64.1(a) does not apply


to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.

 
Yes, but a boat doesn't officially break a rule until they do turns or the PC says so. Since no one did turns and there was no hearing, no one get exonerated.
pretty nasty slippery slope here: If the outside boat had recognized the problem and did turns, there is no 'official' rule breaking, no pc and no protest so no exoneration, so inside must do turns or retire ?

 

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