Rules questions

[Mambo Kings]

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

Do what you can to comply with 14 (avoiding contact), and protest if you think another boat has broken a rule.

 

If windward boat comes in and you havent altered course and Windward boat cannot clear the cttee boat without bearing away and hitting you, then he breaks rule 11. You can luff to dissuade him, until he is overlapped with ctee boat then you cannot sail any higher.

 

If Leeward boat is calling "up" when you and the windward boat are already inevitably overlapped with cttee boat and cannot luff without hitting cttee boat......then hail "Rule 16" ..."Please cease your luff"

 

2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

Protest. Easier to win this one with an outside witness. Without one, it's he said, she said.

 

A leeward boat can luff right up to HTW with all sails luffing before the start. Because there is no PC before the start.

 

In the unlikely event that they go beyond HTW and start to fall onto port tack, then they have to keep clear because they are tacking (rule13) and if they go all the way to new chc on port tack, then they have to keep clear port/starboard (rule10).

 

Most likely they didnt go above HTW, but had flapping sails and continued to luff higher.......then yes, you have to keep clear under rule 11.

 

3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

Arguably a breach of rule 2. And a downside of tack or cross.

If you dipped at all, then rule 2 breach. Otherwise he just changed his mind.

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A culture of poor rules observance in a fleet can be changed, but it's an uphill battle. You need the respected guys to take a lead, fleet captains to stress rules observance, hold seminars, a spell of lots of people protesting...and so on.

 

Yes you are meant to head up to avoid them, with two caveats:-

1. If you need to start to head up before they reach chc in order to avoid, then they broke either 13 or 15.

2. You do not need to head up higher than chc. Since in the starboard wall, many boats are eased off as they reach the mark....you need to be sure that you headed higher than a tightly sheeted in chc before you invoke this rule.

 

[Mambo Kings]

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A culture of poor rules observance in a fleet can be changed, but it's an uphill battle. You need the respected guys to take a lead, fleet captains to stress rules observance, hold seminars, a spell of lots of people protesting...and so on.

 

Yes you are meant to head up to avoid them, with two caveats:-

1. If you need to start to head up before they reach chc in order to avoid, then they broke either 13 or 15.

2. You do not need to head up higher than chc. Since in the starboard wall, many boats are eased off as they reach the mark....you need to be sure that you headed higher than a tightly sheeted in chc before you invoke this rule.



 

5. Not sure if this is related to #4, but coming into the weather mark, as soon as port tackers tacked, they would yell "tack completed". What is the significance of this? I'm thinking they are trying to tell you that it is now a simple overtaking-boat situation and as such you have to avoid them. Correct?

Trying to psyche people out. They're still constrained by 18.3

They are yelling this to avoid being protested under rule 13 or 15...see above. As soon as they reach chc, they yell "tack completed"

 

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

 

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Thanks for this learning.

Another question I forgot to ask: if a boat hits a mark because someone gave too little room, obviously you'd want to protest the guy who was such a cheapskate. Do you still have to do a turn then seek redress as well as protest him?

So far so good, keep 'em coming

You have to protest the boat that left too little room. Provided you win the protest than you are exonerated from hitting the mark. (see rule 64.1 ©)

If you do a single spin to insure yourself , then if you lose the protest you cannot be dsq, but if you win the protest, you will not get redress.

 

[clamslapper]

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

 

[Jkdubz808]

Some people have added some good stuff here, figured I'd add mine as well;

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

It sounds like a barging situation. He should know better than to stick his nose in there and try to force his way in. He needs to avoid the committee boat.

2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

Yell at them to not go past head to wind. Cuz you're right, they cannot go past head to wind. Everyone gets aggressive at the start, and sometimes abiding by the rules goes out the fucking window. They just need to be reminded of their boundaries.

3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

Thats a symptom of dooshbagitus. Be wary of buying them drinks at the bar.........

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

Technically if you have to alter course its their fault. However, that being said the whole 3 boat length circle is a big gray area. If I am not mistaken the port-starboard rule still applies even in the circle. However, if he COMPLETES his tack and no one has to alter much then give him room. It would be hard to take this to the room if all you had to do was pinch a little when he tacked below your bow. Trust me, Ive tried.....

5. Not sure if this is related to #4, but coming into the weather mark, as soon as port tackers tacked, they would yell "tack completed". What is the significance of this? I'm thinking they are trying to tell you that it is now a simple overtaking-boat situation and as such you have to avoid them. Correct?

Thats right. Its to let you know that they are now on your same tack and the dynamics of the situation completely change. People actually yell this??

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

Thats correct. And whatever you do DO NOT hunt him! If there are any on the water judges they will toss your ass out. Another thing I learned from experience........

 

 

 

Hope this helped. Others may argue with me, but I don't give a shit :lol: . Get a new rule book and read up on the rules. I think we all need to do that from time to time.

 

[backstayman2]

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.

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[beachball]

[sNIP]

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

 

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.

Absolutely wrong - the other responses were correct: The inside boat is entitled to mark room but does not have ROW. Port-starboard does apply.

 

[backstayman2]

[sNIP]

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

 

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.

Absolutely wrong - the other responses were correct: The inside boat is entitled to mark room but does not have ROW. Port-starboard does apply.

I wonder if you could clarify the difference. Not sure I understand. Again, if you could apply to the real world, I'm steaming toward the right-hand gate on starboard and some fellow coming in on port politely mentions (ya right!!!!) that he's entitled to room. What, exactly, should I do, other than round leaving just enough water for him to get around the mark in? I believe I understand how this is all supposed to work at the left gate, since it's a standard leave-to-port rounding -- but not sure about how to play it on the other side.

 

[clamslapper]

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.

Wow wow wow. Just a couple more? Will she let you do an arguably NSFW one?

 

[Joakim]

[sNIP]

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

 

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.

Absolutely wrong - the other responses were correct: The inside boat is entitled to mark room but does not have ROW. Port-starboard does apply.

I wonder if you could clarify the difference. Not sure I understand. Again, if you could apply to the real world, I'm steaming toward the right-hand gate on starboard and some fellow coming in on port politely mentions (ya right!!!!) that he's entitled to room. What, exactly, should I do, other than round leaving just enough water for him to get around the mark in? I believe I understand how this is all supposed to work at the left gate, since it's a standard leave-to-port rounding -- but not sure about how to play it on the other side.

You have it right. You have ROW, but you need to give "mark-room" to the inside boat. The definition of mark room is to sail to the mark and then sail proper course while at the mark. He can't take any more space from you since you have ROW.

 

[Steam Flyer]

He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.

{waving red flag}

Protest!

FB- Doug

 

[bsainsbury]

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.

I wish more newbs were willing to post so many awesome pics!

 

[Joakim]

In many replys there are mentions about different hails like "up", "tack or cross" etc. But they have no meaning in the rules! Only hailing "protest", "room to tack" and responding "you tack" have a meaning in the rules. If someone hails "tack or cross", you don't have to respond and if you do, your response has no meaning. Maybe you could protest for bad sportsmanship (Rule 2) due to a misleading hail, but it needs to be a very clear case then.

 

[backstayman2]

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.

Wow wow wow. Just a couple more? Will she let you do an arguably NSFW one?

Nah, I think nothing really NSFW. Last one's at the very tip of Cape Hatteras on Christmas Day.

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[HSG]

It is refreshing (and there were a few occassions at Charleston) when a competitor honors the rules and tacks/gybes out when it is a close call rather than sticking it in at the boat or windward mark or failing to slow down and fall in line at the leeward mark. Unfortunately, the norm appears to have become if you can stick it in- do so and if you are prosteted, you do a 360 turn (too small a penalty) or act as if you have no idea that you just screwed everyone else by ingnoring basic rules on the course and yell protest. Just got back from Charleston and had the same thoughts.

 

[Steam Flyer]

One thing to bear in mind, just like the rules have changed over the past 20 years, they are being changed MORE now. For example, in the latest edition they F'd up the definitions and are realizing that the "Buoy Room Rule" is also screwed. Expect everything you learn now to be wrong within 5 years.

Answers in BOLD BLUE

Hi, I just got back into racing after a 25-year hiatus and despite trying to read the rule book, I am having difficulty understanding a few basic rules. I have zero desire to be involved in protests; I want to become known as a clean competitor. Could I have a bit of advice on a few scenarios I ran into a few times at Charleston Race Week:

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

You never owe mark-room (which is what they call buoy room nowadays) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water. If the windward boat cannot avoid colliding with the RC boat, then you cannot force him into a collision but he still should get a DSQ (and you need to protest him).

 

In the case of stacked-up boats it's more complicated... you need to hail both directions simultaneously, the Right-Of-Way boat to leeward of you is an obstruction yet he cannot force you into a collision either. The good news is that the boats on the ends get the DSQ: leeward for forcing a collision and/or not giving room to keep clear, windward for not keeping clear

2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

Correct, a leeward boat cannot go beyond head-to-wind. After that, they are tacking! Note that if -you- must tack away to avoid them while they are going head-to-wind, that's tough for you but perfectly legal for them.

 

Note also that if the leeward boat comes up to you from astern, they gain Right-Of-Way as soon as they have the overlap. They must give you room to keep clear but you must keep clear (see the definitions)

3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

After receiving your hail, if he tacks so as to interfere, you have the right to throw a brick into his cockpit. Alternatively, you can wait until establishing an overlap and then tie the brick to a 4' rope and swing it full force at him (this way you get to keep the brick)

 

Just kidding. It's a dick move fully deserving of a brick upside the head, but unfortunately the rules don't address this. Remember there are only 2 hails acknowledged officially. Using hails to avoid troouble is good sportsmanship. Abusing hails to gain an advantage is bullshit.

 

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A boat that tacks within the 3-boat-length zone has NO RIGHTS to mark room. If they complete a tack below you, they still have R-O-W as lee boat except that they cannot force you above close-hauled (R18.3). So if they can squeeze in without force you above close-hauled, they're in their. If your jib luffs, rail 'em and protest.

 

Note- by "rail 'em" I mean don't cause damage in a collision, and that includes any contact between sails & rigs. But if there is no contact it will be difficult to convince a protest committee that there was an actual foul.

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

B.Tech and Joakim have it right. The "Buoy Room Rule" (18 in all it's glory) used to turn off port-starboard, windward-leeward, etc etc, but nowadays it does not. So we have situations where a boat is entitled to mark-room but does not have R-O-W. The difference is in what that boat can do. Mark-room is interpreted to mean room to sail to, and around, the mark... but not to try and place any tactical moves on the other boat. A R-O-W boat has more latitude to make tactical moves but can still be constrained to give mark-room.

I realize some of these are pretty basic, but despite reading the rule book I just can't seem to remember how these very common situations are supposed to work in the real world. Any guidance very much appreciated.

It sucks that they have totally messed up the rules (this is one of my favorite rants). Most of the way the game is played has not changed, but some things have changed in a major way. And the weasel-wording of things like "Keep Clear" and "Mark Room" means that Protest Committees make all kinds of screwy decisions.

It's good that they got rid of 'Mast Abeam' but they should have quit while ahead... or at least gone much more slowly. Now there is no basis for clear & concise rules because they've changed so much.

How often do they change the rules of chess?

[/rant]

Now go forth and race hard, and carry thy protest flag in thy pocket!

FB- Doug

 

[J24_guy]

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.

Wow wow wow. Just a couple more? Will she let you do an arguably NSFW one?

Nah, I think nothing really NSFW. Last one's at the very tip of Cape Hatteras on Christmas Day.

That is one good-looking bum there. I hope the folks here have answered your questions; i imagine you have made their day!

 

[bulbouskeel]

No wonder the OP sounds pretty mellow. If you had that little slice of heaven snuggling up with you every night, you would be too. Protest, schmotest! ("Gee, would I rather spend an hour with some angry guys in the protest room, or having cocktails with my wife? ... have to think about that.")

No shit. If I had that waiting for me on the dock after a rough day of racing? I would pull out my yellow flag in two seconds, take the scoring penalty, and take her home pronto!!!

 

[The Advocate]

He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.

{waving red flag}

Protest!

FB- Doug

Awww crap, another one.....

 

[DoRag]

He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.

{waving red flag}

Protest!

FB- Doug

Awww crap, another one.....

Time for the foreigners to chime in?