SailGP

dg_sailingfan

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Augsburg
@yoyo
The Diamond-System used in Auckland during AC36 was a lot more sensible & reasonable
vlcsnap-2022-08-01-18h22m04s605.png

If these Diamond-Shape Boundaries around the Boats had been overlayed ETNZ would have been given a Penalty shortly after the Start of Race 1 in AC36 BUT as you can see here they weren't so no Penalty was given.

Maybe it's time for SailGP to use something similar. Create a Protection Zone around the Boats and when they overlayed give a Penalty and when they not overlayed let the racing continue.
 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
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Shanghai, China
There is no split-second decision-making, the umpire software is amazing and very accurate and has predicted paths as well as actual paths. The umpires also know the rules better than the rest of us. If they say AUS wasn't hunting and that it was a penalty for GBR, then the case is closed. Ainslie should realise in today's world of mm perfect umpiring systems, he can't risk marginal calls like that.
The penalty/no penalty decision is still a human one. I haven't seen the telemetry as I am pretty sure you haven't but even at club or national level competitors expect umpire decisions within 2-3 seconds so I am sure at this level they expect the umpires to be up to speed and in close incidents like the one under discussions with likely an umpire will take a boat each and be talking its actions out loud 'live' whether looking at video, telemetry or whatever tools they have available. The culmination of the conversation likely to be Umpire 1 "On You" Umpire 2 "Agreed" Penalty awarded or otherwise.

I would say that whomever it was who posted on the livestream comments about "Corrupt officials" was talking out his ass.

Ainslie's statement in Stingray's post is right and wrong. The ghost boat software isn't smart enough to have an 'accelerometer' built in and the rate of speed change (up and down) of these boats can turn a near miss into a large one or a clear cross into a collision. At the bottom of the gybe the GBR speed had dropped to 44.2 of those kilometre things, when the video went to close up it was already up to 47.7 and 4 or 5 boat lengths later it was 53. A 1 kph acceleration is 27cms further down the track every second. If he had gained 2 kph in a second that the ghost boat didn't account for that is 0.5m clearance. It he hadn't gained that 2 kph then he would perhaps have lost his rudders to Slingsby's bow - not easy!

With boats that can change the point of closest approach with such rapidity a ghost boat is a flawed tool. The umpire manual states very clearly that "If umpires are in doubt they should go back to the last point of certainty" and if they have to use what is a computer generated 'ghost' they clearly aren't certain.

Sir Ben however is correct in that umpiring is NOT easy. I am a relative beginner and if you are doing your job right you come off the water as fucked mentally as the sailors.

He is correct also that very often an umpire's decision WILL decide the outcome of the race but that should be a consequence of an unbiased decision and NOT a desire to deliberately make a decision to effect the race's outcome. I guess it would be difficult to tell the difference.

Ben is clearly unhappy about the decision and doesn't think he made a mistake but if sailors were as perfect with their rules knowledge and application as they want umpires to be then they wouldn't need the umpires in the first place now would they but they clearly do.

Anyway, a lot to have a pop at there and the aim is to further the discussion. Umpiring at these sort of speeds will always be challenging whether the decision is from a mark one eyeball or software so smart you would think NASA developed it
 

Stingray~

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Sounds like Ben is working on improving his relationship with the judges.

I guess a judging system that predicts boat positions three boat lengths into the future when boats are travelling at over 50km/hr (45 feet / sec) isn't accurate enough to predict a collision.
I saw a graphic posted somewhere showing the judges view and how the ghost boat 3 lengths ahead of AUS was going to impact GBR (maybe it was the GBR ghost boat) at about midship, right before AUS altered course.
 

Stingray~

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I can believe they were going to hit, but not that it would be midships
I could be wrong about midships, wish I could find it again. On acceleration, yes BA did bring that up too for example at here


edit: it's possible the software takes acceleration into account but I doubt it if BA is bringing that up. You'd have to do trickery like 'move the ghost farther ahead' or somesuch.
 

dg_sailingfan

Super Anarchist
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521
Augsburg
@enigmatically2
This is turning out to be very ugly between Ainslie and Mitchell

“I’m actually getting more and more irritated because I try to defend umpires. It’s a difficult job. But in my opinion it was 50-50 at worst. And if it’s 50-50 then it should be a green flag because the umpires shouldn’t be deciding the outcome of the race. He [Mitchell] does have a tendency to want to decide the outcome of a race in my experience.”
 

Stingray~

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I could be wrong about midships, wish I could find it again. On acceleration, yes BA did bring that up too for example at here


edit: it's possible the software takes acceleration into account but I doubt it if BA is bringing that up. You'd have to do trickery like 'move the ghost farther ahead' or somesuch.
Oh, turns out I have a screenshot. Still not sure the source but here it is

1659380742930.jpeg
 

Stingray~

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And if BA was accelerating he could have easily made that extra bit. But even if he is right, it was dangerous to assume the umpires would agree.
Yes, interesting how the AUS ghost is farther ahead of AUS than what GBR's ghost is ahead of GBR, by about 10% like the speed differential was. Estimating future acceleration is problematic for reasons that include wind pressure (even getting gassed), AWA changes, etc. It looks about as accurate as is possible and the judges need to be disciplined about calling it per the tools they have.

Tough for BA for sure but finishing 4th in the event was not too-too devastating a result. TNZ just barely missed making the Final in Chicago too.
 

Stingray~

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Can you get this screen shot with less magnification (pull out), Stinger. Be interesting to see what the boat trail reveals about the Aussie's hunting.
Sorry, I do not have that but it may well accessible via the SGP app? Mozzy's vid above may also include the trail, I forget. I saw a clip that was onboard from AUS where by the horizon you could see them bearing off 'to avoid' but I have not seen anything from an earlier head-up. That onboard would for sure be available from on the app.
 

yoyo

Anarchist
758
315
Why would AUS bearing off or supposedly hunting as some suggest be wrong? AUS has every right to choose their fastest path and AUS did not prevent GBR from staying clear. GBR rolled the dice ... and it didn't pay off
 




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