Sailing to the Nord Stream Pipeline on the Q-T.

[noaano]

and that is different for fishing vessels because.........?

Fishing vessels have an excuse for being relatively static in one place. Sailing vessels tend to be moving from Point A to destination at port B. They don't anchor and lower the swim platform in the middle of the Baltic sea.

Yeah amateur / hobby fishing vessel would do just fine.

But not the professional, registered real fishing vessel, because those are closely monitored for the fishing rights and quotas by all the coastal nations and they track their AIS via satellite 24/7.

And track even with AIS turned off, via coastal radars, patrol ships/planes/helos and radar satellites.

Anyhow, I don't see a sailboat as that bad a choice. Light sailing conditions could cross the same spot twice 2hrs apart, and no one would notice.

 

[noaano]

+ one more bonus for sailboat, maybe important.

When sailing, a small sailboat is very hard to detect with a hydrophone array. Motor vessel on the other hand is quite easily tracked many tens of miles away, and in the area involved, there is a very tight coverage with permanent sensor arrays by at least the Danish, Swedish and German navies - Polish maybe also could track from their arrays.

This would also be a good reason to use CCR vs open circuit, maybe, dunno how far away that can be picked.

But those modern hydrophones are mighty good. They were pretty good already when I served, and that was a while back.

 

[Kalimotxo]

Yeah amateur / hobby fishing vessel would do just fine.

But not the professional, registered real fishing vessel, because those are closely monitored for the fishing rights and quotas by all the coastal nations and they track their AIS via satellite 24/7.

And track even with AIS turned off, via coastal radars, patrol ships/planes/helos and radar satellites.

Anyhow, I don't see a sailboat as that bad a choice. Light sailing conditions could cross the same spot twice 2hrs apart, and no one would notice.

At the height of the pandemic restrictions, we crossed from Germany to Sweden on a small 30-foot trimaran. I had phoned the Swedish embassy in Berlin to ask for the green light. As we approached a town after a week at anchor, sailing from island to island, we were approached by a Swedish Coast Guard Zodiac. A very friendly chat, just a few questions about our plans, but I realised that the man I was talking to knew the entire itinerary of our tiny tri. He was just checking to see if I was telling the truth.

 

[noaano]

At the height of the pandemic restrictions

Maybe this is the key.

Normally, there are hundred or so boats crossing every day from Germany to Sweden or Denmark and even more commercial ships crossing from Danish waterways into Baltic.

They track everyone sure, but maybe not in detail to track every jibe and wind shift for every sailboat.

I have been many many times checked with patrol planes and helicopters from both sides, usually they just fly by but sometimes hail on VHF and ask for number of crew etc. Never been boarded in Baltic.

I have class A ais on always on passage, so they can see me from far away.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

+ one more bonus for sailboat, maybe important.

When sailing, a small sailboat is very hard to detect with a hydrophone array.

Bit easier than a private charter fishing boat to find on radar though

 

[noaano]

Bit easier than a private charter fishing boat to find on radar though

No that much real difference, I would say, not much.

With the radars that matter, both can be seen fine.

Few actual radars around Bornholm:

Plus the radars on planes/helos/patrol ships and satellites.

 

[floater]

Also the energy release speed, frequency content and P/S -wave distribution would give different signature, but I am half guessing here.

yes. this is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on this site (although you've got a few other runner-ups I suppose). ps: I've got a background in seismology.

Ummm...fishing boat?

I've seen some credible commentary - again from a professional - that a sailboat plainly ridiculous for staging an operation like this.

but that a fishing boat might work.

still. what we've actually got here is a sailboat.

worth noting that at the very first press conference a German official stated that a 'false flag' operation a possibility. hell yeah. why not charter a yacht for a little false flag fun.

seems a lot likelier than actually puttering around in foreign waters, on a slow yacht, with enough explosives not only to spark an international incident. but possibly to land you in jail for a decade or two.

 

[noaano]

yes. this is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on this site (although you've got a few other runner-ups I suppose). ps: I've got a background in seismology.

Why don't you then correct us and tell how to differentiate an earthquake from man made explosion, you being the expert?

Is seismology a special kind of signal processing where you cannot do a FFT or other DSP operations for example in order to produce a characteristic signature? Can you not train and use ML to categorize the events?

Not that details are the point here, but it is always nice to learn new things, yes?

I've seen some credible commentary - again from a professional - that a sailboat plainly ridiculous for staging an operation like this.

but that a fishing boat might work.

What is the main crucial difference between a sailboat and fishing boat here that makes all the difference?

And where do you need those 200+ gas bottles, can you remind us?

 

[noaano]

seems a lot likelier than actually puttering around in foreign waters, on a slow yacht, with enough explosives not only to spark an international incident. but possibly to land you in jail for a decade or two.

And going with non-sailboat would somehow be a free from jail card here, yes?

 

[noaano]

worth noting that at the very first press conference a German official stated that a 'false flag' operation a possibility. hell yeah. why not charter a yacht for a little false flag fun.

And operation being false flag or not is orthogonal to the method it was implemented, yes?

And the motives might remain mystery for much longer than the method, yes?

Ultimate false flag would be to make it appear it exploded from the inside, which it did not, yes?

 

[Parma]

....or maybe the Chinese did it to deepen russian dependency on China......

 

[Se7en]

I've seen some credible commentary - again from a professional - that a sailboat plainly ridiculous for staging an operation like this.

but that a fishing boat might work.

What's the difference?
I've done dives from both using the same gear as I have used for 80m dives. I've done 2 hour dives on CCR from a 38 ft sail boat (to around 200ft from memory, but the gear and process is identical for deeper dives)
The biggest difference is in the swim platform and ladder.
Sure - a fishing boat with a big wide aft deck makes setting gear up for a bunch of divers easier. But getting 2 people in the water for an 80m dive would be pretty easy on a 50 ft sailboat.

 

[noaano]

....or maybe the Chinese did it to deepen russian dependency on China......

A possibility, for sure.

Many parties have a motive both for and against.

 

[noaano]

The biggest difference is in the swim platform and ladder.

And have to remember, big sportfishers are not as common in the Baltic as they are elsewhere. I am not saying there is none, but the numbers are low.

Most amateur fishing boats in the Baltic are small and have outboards in back, not big flat platform like would be ideal.

getting 2 people in the water for an 80m dive would be pretty easy on a 50 ft sailboat.

This.

They could just toss the stuff overboard, optionally tied to a long line and clip it on in water. Have done that many times myself, mainly for comfort, as with sidemounts it is easy and way nicer for your back.

Getting back is easier as they naturally left the big stuff behind.

Maybe it was just easier to charter a bareboat sailboat than a fishing boat, maybe its that simple?

 

[noaano]

Screenshot from a dive computer after delivering the "package" and just before the ascent:

27 min is enough for a quick descent and attaching the package, time to surface 56 minutes with first short one minute stop at 45 meters.

So the total dive time might be even less than 2 hrs. Here it is 83 minutes.

ps.
10/50 mix might be slightly too hypoxic for this depth, 15/45 - 15/55 would most likely be more optimal, but everything still looks pretty realistic and in line with previous discussion.

And pushing the PPO2 higher, maybe all the way to 1.5-1.6 would cut the time further, if some risk is accepted. Also deco could most likely be accelerated a little by switching the dil, but most likely would just complicate things.

Even more pushing is certainly possible by more exotic means, like adding a little H2 into the mix, but that is way way outside amateur diving scope.

 

[Se7en]

ps.
10/50 mix might be slightly too hypoxic for this depth, 15/45 - 15/55 would most likely be more optimal, but everything still looks pretty realistic and in line with previous discussion.

And pushing the PPO2 higher, maybe all the way to 1.5-1.6 would cut the time further, if some risk is accepted. Also deco could most likely be accelerated a little by switching the dil, but most likely would just complicate things.

Even more pushing is certainly possible by more exotic means, like adding a little H2 into the mix, but that is way way outside amateur diving scope.

Ha! it was you!
I'm willing to bet that more CCR dives have been done on 10/50 than any other mix, I used to bank 10/50 and 20/50 at home and mix as required for local dives. I did like more He for deeper dives though, no downside in the depths I normally dived too.

I'm a big fan of 1.6 on deco - particularly at 6m. You can track offgassing rates to some extent, which makes me happy.

Folks I've dived with previously are currently playing with H2 in a recreational setting - I suspect you have heard about it too.
They can keep that to themselves as far as I'm concerned. Boosting O2 scares me enough.

 

[noaano]

Folks I've dived with previously are currently playing with H2 in a recreational setting - I suspect you have heard about it too.
They can keep that to themselves as far as I'm concerned. Boosting O2 scares me enough.

H2 can be added at sub 4% percent quite safely to any mix, or greater than 95% to very hypoxic mixes.

Its the middle between those values that is dangerous

And you must be able to dil flush very very thoroughly.

As I said, not really recreational stuff anymore, but way fascinating, and just like CCR, will trickle down eventually in a few decades.

And that 4% content alone gives a solid substantial additional DCS margin, if everything else is kept the same, with no real change in any procedures.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Most amateur fishing boats in the Baltic are small and have outboards in back, not big flat platform like would be ideal.

if they can afford the dive gear and the explosives, they can afford to charter a nicer fishing boat. I've seen these fuckers all over the place up in those parts for years.

 

[noaano]

if they can afford the dive gear and the explosives, they can afford to charter a nicer fishing boat. I've seen these fuckers all over the place up in those parts for years.

Axopar is a nice boat, but diving from one is not that different than from a sailboat - narrow ladders at stern right next to exposed props and no easy way for entry from side.

I still see no difference between a sailboat and a small powerboat. The opposite actually, in sailboat you can do whatever preps under the deck hidden from outside view. Small powerboat is much more limited in this regard.

 

[noaano]

Ha! it was you!

I am not saying it was me, but if it was, I would have two teams of two divers, staggered descend and ascend:

T 0min first pair descends
T 4min first pair at bottom, places the payload to position
T 5min second pair descends
T 9 min second pair arrives and starts fixing the package in place, assisted by first pair
T 15 min first pair starts ascend
T 20 min second pair finishes job starts ascend

This cuts bottom time effectively to half and cuts deco dramatically - thus way shorter total time in position.