Sailors Powerboat

billy backstay

Backstay, never bought a suit, never went to Vegas
I am not sure what I would sell this boat for, I am not sure the numbers would work out for anyone ;)

This was built by Turn Point Design (Brandon Davis) in Port Townsend and we have been working on and off the design for the next version which we'd make as a kit.   I have 5 or 6 people interested but we haven't really got our shit together yet.  The plan was to have the mods finished for this boat  (including new foils, new glass windshield, cabin top etc) but money and time have been prioritized elsewhere.   We'll get back on it soon though.

We had a framework for a plan for the kits, different levels from the CNC cut foam panels (designed with all the markers and cut outs to make assembly as easy as possible), manual and license for $10K to pre made/skinned flat panels, CNC cut with pre made molded below waterline hull, transom and corners/beveled sections for closer to $30K.  The latter would be closer to assembly than building etc.    You'd then obviously have hours, outboards (30-50hp), controls, windows etc etc.        This was all rough but the boat would be lighter, slightly fuller and have better load carrying capacity than the current boat.

cheers

Nige


very cool boats!  You mention "foils", but they are not in evidence in the pics.  Do these boats rise up on hydrofoils?

 

ProaSailor

dreaming my life away...
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widget

Member
400
2
CT
Nige, that cat is beautiful. It would complement my sailboat very well.
Both the cat & the tri!  These are the first non-traditional boats i've seen in the thread which I actually like.   The cat reminds me of a taller more seaworthy version of the cats they use to coach the rowers on the rivers.

 

nige

Super Anarchist
Heh, heh.  That's substantially more than a new, finished F-22 trimaran with sails?  Just another rich man's toy then, nothing for us peasants to drool about.  Move along folks.

Best Runabout Boats of 2017
https://www.boatingmag.com/best-runabout-boats-2017
Ouch - thats a little dismissive.   My posts weren't trying to sell them (until someone asked about prices), I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation.  I haven't seen an F-22 price list in at least 5 or 6 years but I'd have no reason to think it would be cheaper.   Im sure if there was the market to consider making tools for 100 boats you could be looking at some very different numbers, but I don't believe this is a big market, which is why the kits make a lot of sense.  The higher priced kits would not require much skill to put together, so maybe my estimates for someone else finishing are overstated.  Im not sure, I was just sharing my thoughts as they stand right now.

 

nige

Super Anarchist
very cool boats!  You mention "foils", but they are not in evidence in the pics.  Do these boats rise up on hydrofoils?
No they dont fully rise up.   The one pic of the boat running, it had the old foils in which were too small and too far forward (you can see the bows are being lifted and we were not getting enough lift off the outboard foils).     The new ones will be larger in all dimensions, so they are deeper, stronger and more forgiving.    They will also actually be in the right place ;)    and should lift about 75% of the displacement at 25kts, the idea to leave the "planing" stern sections skimming the water.    So they are foil assisted, not fully foiling.     I have some longer term plans to build another tri that would be a better platform for playing with fully foiling....

 

billy backstay

Backstay, never bought a suit, never went to Vegas
No they dont fully rise up.   The one pic of the boat running, it had the old foils in which were too small and too far forward (you can see the bows are being lifted and we were not getting enough lift off the outboard foils).     The new ones will be larger in all dimensions, so they are deeper, stronger and more forgiving.    They will also actually be in the right place ;)    and should lift about 75% of the displacement at 25kts, the idea to leave the "planing" stern sections skimming the water.    So they are foil assisted, not fully foiling.     I have some longer term plans to build another tri that would be a better platform for playing with fully foiling....
Thanks for 'splaining it, Nige!!  Would be wonderful if someone brought that concept to market!!  OTOH, we all know that a small fortune in boatbuilding begins with a much larger fortune! LOL!

 

ziggy

Member
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here
You all disappoint me.  There is only one. 

IMG_0026.JPG

 

ProaSailor

dreaming my life away...
6,045
751
Oregon
Ouch - thats a little dismissive.   My posts weren't trying to sell them (until someone asked about prices), I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation.  I haven't seen an F-22 price list in at least 5 or 6 years but I'd have no reason to think it would be cheaper.   Im sure if there was the market to consider making tools for 100 boats you could be looking at some very different numbers, but I don't believe this is a big market, which is why the kits make a lot of sense.  The higher priced kits would not require much skill to put together, so maybe my estimates for someone else finishing are overstated.  Im not sure, I was just sharing my thoughts as they stand right now.
Dismissive, yes, personal attack, no.  The boats are very interesting and relevant to the conversation except for two little things: availability and price.  The only customers in your business plan are builders and having one built is likely to be extremely expensive, for a 24' runabout.  Even these scenarios are only possibilities at this point, so "for the rest of us", this boat is effectively unobtainium.  Still a very nice boat, just way out of reach for 99% of us.

 

andykane

Member
438
202
Victoria, BC
Ouch - thats a little dismissive.   My posts weren't trying to sell them (until someone asked about prices), I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation.  I haven't seen an F-22 price list in at least 5 or 6 years but I'd have no reason to think it would be cheaper.   Im sure if there was the market to consider making tools for 100 boats you could be looking at some very different numbers, but I don't believe this is a big market, which is why the kits make a lot of sense.  The higher priced kits would not require much skill to put together, so maybe my estimates for someone else finishing are overstated.  Im not sure, I was just sharing my thoughts as they stand right now.
Thanks for sharing, both boats look phenominally cool. The cat reminds me a bit of the commuter cat Bieker designed, and similar design brief from the sound of things. Those kit prices sound totally reasonable to me. Look at what the typical aluminum runabout goes... Good boats don't come cheap. 

 

nige

Super Anarchist
Dismissive, yes, personal attack, no.  The boats are very interesting and relevant to the conversation except for two little things: availability and price.  The only customers in your business plan are builders and having one built is likely to be extremely expensive, for a 24' runabout.  Even these scenarios are only possibilities at this point, so "for the rest of us", this boat is effectively unobtainium.  Still a very nice boat, just way out of reach for 99% of us.
Ok, they seem relevant to the discussion despite those things rather than except them.  There are fare more expensive and unavailable boats in this thread.    Obviously they wont be for everyone but any low volume semi custom boat isn't going to be cheap.

It seems better to discuss now while the plans are still forming. 

One thing that we are geekily excited about is a model kit version for anyone interested, we are toying with the idea of selling 24" or 36" kits for something like $200, (3d printed parts that would be molded at full size, cut ply for the flat sections) full miniature versions of the kit that would be available so anyone interested would have a good idea of what the build steps would consist of as well as then having a visual model of the final product before they dive into it.

 
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billy backstay

Backstay, never bought a suit, never went to Vegas
Ok, they seem relevant to the discussion despite those things rather than except them.  There are fare more expensive and unavailable boats in this thread.    Obviously they wont be for everyone but any low volume semi custom boat isn't going to be cheap.

It seems better to discuss now while the plans are still forming. 

One thing that we are geekily excited about is a model kit version for anyone interested, we are toying with the idea of selling 24" or 36" kits for something like $200, (3d printed parts that would be molded at full size, cut ply for the flat sections) full miniature versions of the kit that would be available so anyone interested would have a good idea of what the build steps would consist of as well as then having a visual model of the final product before they dive into it.


Sounds like a cool retirement project, when I am 66 in 4 years!!

 

IStream

Super Anarchist
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Nige, ignore Proa. He can't compliment anyone or anything without using the back of his hand.

I love the design concept and you can sign me up for one of those 24" kits.

Just for shits and giggles, have you thought about what you could do with a scaled-up version? I'm thinking 14' beam so it could fit in a standard slip which proportionally puts it at around 40' LOA. My SWAG at the scaled weight is about 5500 lb. 

 

slug zitski

Super Anarchist
5,281
900
worldwide
Cats move nicely ...but they arent friendly boats.  

You cant climb out of that cockpit and walk around the deck , you cant fend off  from that needle bow,  dockage is 1.5 times normal...if you can find a spot 

If you just need a boat that drives like a car...sit behind the wheel and step on the gas .....they are OK

if you need something utalitarian...no 

 

Russell Brown

Super Anarchist
1,636
1,199
Port Townsend WA
Kit boats are attractive for multiple reasons. For one, the buyer turns into a boatbuilder. Building a well designed kit boat can be a very rewarding experience, especially with CNC cut parts. The builder also ends up with a new skill set, especially so if the kit comes with a manual that does a good job of teaching those skills.

Shipping kits costs a fraction of what it would cost to ship finished boats. We have shipped many kits to far away countries successfully.

The most attractive thing to me about kit boats is that wood/epoxy boats can be built so lightly. This would be a huge advantage for the proposed multihull motorboats. To beat the weight of a well designed plywood/epoxy boat, one would have to use exotic materials (cored carbon), the engineering would have to be done carefully, and still the wood/ epoxy boats may come out lighter.

Plywood/epoxy is attractive in many other ways as well. As an engineering material, it is very forgiving. What doesn't seem like it could possibly be strong enough probably is. Lots of thin skinned plywood boats have been around the world. Old, lightly built plywood sports fishing boats have been studied extensively because they weren't failing when newer cored boats were. Plywood boats don't dent when you bang into a dock, where a lightly skinned cored boat will, etc, etc.

Longevity is the next question of course and my feeling is that wood/epoxy boats can last as long or longer than any other method. This is obviously dependent on how one embraces the current technology. One can't "throw something together" and expect it to last a long time. Lots of the work involved is related to longevity. See my book EPOXY BASICS, one of my building manuals, or the Gougeon's bible to see what I'm talking about.

For examples of longevity, consider "Adagio", Meade Gougeon's 35 foot trimaran. It has been raced hard every year for 50 years, is still very competitive and weighs just 2400 pounds! My latest proa is now half that age and has never showed any signs of stress, despite having been sailed hard for 40 some thousand miles and put away wet always. 

My assertions on weigh and longevity of wood/epoxy boats are only based on my own observations, but I feel strongly about both aspects. I have also come to really love working with these materials and the results appeal to me much more than any production boat ever will. 

 
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