Seascape 27

oioi

Super Anarchist
1,064
82
Thought The boat warranted its own thread http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf

Seems to tick a lot of the boxes i am interested in. I would consider the elan 210, but it seems a bit small for what i want.

Looking for a boat thatI can trailer ( which practically speaking means less than 2500kg including trailer)I can go away with the family (in a camping stylee) for a weekThat i can race round the cans three up Can do short 150mile plus coastal racesIs quick, fun, modern. Od racing in europe a bonus, sensible irc handicap a nice to have but not essential

 

U20guy2

Super Anarchist
12,330
1
Pogo 30 is very much the same type of concept. Swing keel, light displacement sport boat with simple cabin accomidations and probably trailerable given the 10.5 pogo is trailerable with permits etc.

I find the combo of using the new large cockpit Asymmetric sport boat hulls with a swing keel concept pretty refreshing given this opens up a whole new range of sailing for a performance type boat with a deep keel. Swing the keel and you can tuck into shallow estuaries and marinas with zero issues and in the case of a hull narrow enough to trailer easy trailering without running into height restrictions etc.

http://www.pogostructures.com/en/cruising-sailboats/pogo-30-in-development/

 
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ctutmark

Super Anarchist
1,739
279
PNW
I think this boat looks quite nice. May not appeal to the floating caravan group and that is fine. Not sure why there was all the hate on the other thread.

 

Timmys_Trick_Turkey

Super Anarchist
1,604
2
When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

/monthly_03_2012/post-14539-046115600%201333186857_thumb.jpg

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...

 

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Timmys_Trick_Turkey

Super Anarchist
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2
The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also. Ramp launching a 27 footer that sits so high above the trailer, is going to be very hard, even with a trailer drawbar extension. Ive seen big trailable yachts with keels like these on trailers where their wheels drop off the end of launching ramps, with the hulls still not in the water. The keel design is bad. It needs to be a drop keel that retracts into a case that enables the boat to sit flat on a beach. Think about the average height of a domestic carport. It helps if it can fit under that when on the trailer. Its annoying to get your crutch wet walking out to your boat which has to be anchored so much further out than all the other boats, when the campfire is over and you are heading off to bed. In the Goolwa to Meningie race, where the weather deteriorated and everybody wanted to retrieve at the end of the race, rather than sail back, there was a First 21 with a keel like this. They had to take the trailer out into the lake with a huge farmers tractor to retrieve it, because the ramp was not steep enough to get the boat onto the trailer. At Sale, in the Marlay Point overnighter, they cancelled the race because gale force winds blew the wind out of the lake, exposing the ramp end at Sale, which sits at the upwind end of the lake. With a design like this, youd have no choice but sail the course to get to Paynesville to a ramp that you could use, or anchor far out in the lake in horrific conditions while everyone else with fully retractable keels could nestle amongst the reeds... trailable yachts of this size, with protruding keels like this, are frankly a laughingstock. I know its difficult for keelboat guys to understand this, but powerboaters gun their motors and drive their boats onto their trailers. When they do that, they blow all the sand away from the end of the concrete ramp underwater. Thats why you see signs asking them not to do it, but they ignore them. Keel boats like this are prone to having their trailer wheels drop off the end of the concrete ramp, into that hole, so now the trailer bed sits flat on the concrete ramp, with the boat still out of the water. And as the wheel rolls over the edge, its taking the rig another 2 feet into the water whether you would like it or not. Suddenly your exhaust pipe and trailer electrical coupling are now underwater. What do you do then ??? Get a dozen blokes with levers to try and lift the trailer and boat back up onto the ramp again ? Or hook up another 4wd to try and tow your rig out of the water ? And even if the boat floats off as a result of the trailer dropping so far, and then you manage to lift the trailer up so the wheels are back on the ramp, how in the hell do you plan to retrieve the boat ??? Scrap the protruding keel, its a disaster because most ramps arent long enough underwater to accommodate boats that sit so high on a trailer. The external keel also requires the hull to be rotated to fit into a container.?? What condition will the battery and cabin contents and glossy side of the hull be in after a thousand miles of having to rest on its side on a trailer pad ??? Love the mini, love keel boats, but there is a serious lack of maxi trailable yacht practical expertize in the design of this trailable yacht.

 
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Stubby

Member
222
9
Melbourne
The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.
I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.

 

Timmys_Trick_Turkey

Super Anarchist
1,604
2
The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.
I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.
This boat isnt like a 3.9 metre beam "sometimes trailable with special permit and always launch in protected conditions with the club crane type of boat." Its designed to be a street legal towable with the family 4wd, with a maximum beam of 2.54m and usable at most boat ramps. No doubt there are some premium boatramps in the world that can accommodate it with extendable trailer drawbar when the tide is right, but there are serious disadvantages in thinking that trailable yachts this big dont exert huge forces. For example, I saw a duncanson 25 that was trying to be launched at Snowdens Beach once. The trailer bogged quickly, so he uncoupled, approached the trailer from an angle, with a long rope, gunned the 4wd, and promptly ripped all 4 boat trailer tyres off their rims... They were well and truly bogged. When you design a trailable yacht this size, you need to talk to guys who have built, owned, cruised and raced them in all conditions, including shallow water. Theres enough of us around, and if you want to sell us one, you need to be able to answer the tough questions...

 

ctutmark

Super Anarchist
1,739
279
PNW
When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

/monthly_03_2012/post-14539-046115600%201333186857_thumb.jpg

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...
Your comments were not the ones I meant, although it does seem like you are pretty fired up about this boat.

Agreed the bad photoshop pic is pretty strange, I do wonder if it was a stitched together pic and the people moved between frames. That might be too simple of an explanation for the tin foil hat brigade though.

Pogo/Structures uses a pressure relief valve on a hydraulic ram that allows the keel to move when it hits something. Is pretty simple technology. And the published number of 85cm of draft with the keel up doesn't seem like much. Guessing the J70 almost has that.

As I said, this won't be a boat for everyone but does look like a potentially nice boat fitting into an open niche in the market.

 

narecet

Super Anarchist
1,055
0
When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

/monthly_03_2012/post-14539-046115600%201333186857_thumb.jpg

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...
Not sure if I would call that "extensive" photoshopping. It doesn't really seem like much time was taken at all.

Yes, I know that my faith in accuracy of CNC cutting, like yours, depends keenly on accuracy of photoshopping. We think much alike, you and I (Balok to Kirk, some Star Trek episode.)

It must have been painful, being so deceived by that picture! Do you think you can sue for damages? There's this fellow Kithcart who knows a lawyer who will take just about any case: give him a ring!

 
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Stubby

Member
222
9
Melbourne
The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.
I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.
This boat isnt like a 3.9 metre beam "sometimes trailable with special permit and always launch in protected conditions with the club crane type of boat." Its designed to be a street legal towable with the family 4wd, with a maximum beam of 2.54m and usable at most boat ramps. No doubt there are some premium boatramps in the world that can accommodate it with extendable trailer drawbar when the tide is right, but there are serious disadvantages in thinking that trailable yachts this big dont exert huge forces. For example, I saw a duncanson 25 that was trying to be launched at Snowdens Beach once. The trailer bogged quickly, so he uncoupled, approached the trailer from an angle, with a long rope, gunned the 4wd, and promptly ripped all 4 boat trailer tyres off their rims... They were well and truly bogged. When you design a trailable yacht this size, you need to talk to guys who have built, owned, cruised and raced them in all conditions, including shallow water. Theres enough of us around, and if you want to sell us one, you need to be able to answer the tough questions...
I wasn't commenting on the practicality of it, if you read my post again you will notice that I was talking about the mechanism to lift the keel. You seemed very against this type of keel on this type of boat and I was merely saying that 50fters use it so it must work pretty bloody well.

 

fcfc

Member
153
11
Empty 1150 kg. Ballast 550 kg. That leaves 600 kg for everything else,

I wonder how they plan to do it ???

That very near GP26 weights.

 

huey 2

Super Anarchist
2,682
1,044
syd
Le Mach 30 a collaboration between verdier and jps productions is my favorite ride but have to go to france OK when do i go ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
There are literally thousands of swing keel boats out there. Most use some kind of cable and winch set up and most, if not all, have some kind of shear pin to hold the keel down. The shear pin simply has to be strong enough to prevent the keel from swinging back into the boat during a broach but is of a material that pretty easily shears or cut through when the boat grounds. If you have an issue with bent shear pins, all one has to do is crank the keel up and shear than pin to get it out. Pretty simple and basic really. Just ask the thousands who deal with them daily.

Ramps are always an issue. Most are never maintained well enough and at least in the US, most are geared towards small power boats so they are seldom laid out to work well for sailboats. Years ago, we used to launch boats off the embankment beside the ramp as it worked better than the ramp itself. When you travel with a trailerable boat of this size, you do need to plan well.

This boat looks good and will hopefully fill a need to enough buyers that they are successful.

 

dralyagmas

Anarchist
503
1
South Oz
The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.
I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.
This boat isnt like a 3.9 metre beam "sometimes trailable with special permit and always launch in protected conditions with the club crane type of boat." Its designed to be a street legal towable with the family 4wd, with a maximum beam of 2.54m and usable at most boat ramps. No doubt there are some premium boatramps in the world that can accommodate it with extendable trailer drawbar when the tide is right, but there are serious disadvantages in thinking that trailable yachts this big dont exert huge forces. For example, I saw a duncanson 25 that was trying to be launched at Snowdens Beach once. The trailer bogged quickly, so he uncoupled, approached the trailer from an angle, with a long rope, gunned the 4wd, and promptly ripped all 4 boat trailer tyres off their rims... They were well and truly bogged. When you design a trailable yacht this size, you need to talk to guys who have built, owned, cruised and raced them in all conditions, including shallow water. Theres enough of us around, and if you want to sell us one, you need to be able to answer the tough questions...
Launching a 2.5 tonnes (Duncanson 25) on a soft mud beach (not ramp) ie Snowdens is just bloody daft. The bloke deserves to have that fuck up. There is plenty of room for a swing keel boat like this, biggest issue would be having enough ballast in the keel to keep it powerful enough to sail how it looks otherwise it will be seen as a dog

 
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