Seeking design for a OD fleet, ~$30k new

[hendrixharlow]

If you are interested in quality one design racing, with an active fleet right next door, and a boat that is very easy to deal with, fun to sail, and affordable (definitely you can build a fleet with your price range), I definitely think we should talk about the Viper 640.  We have a passionate and active fleet in Marblehead of 10 boats, with most of us living in and around Boston.  We sail one design every Saturday in Marblehead MRA's and actively campaign our boats all over the place.  With a super active fleet in the Northeast we find ourselves packing the boats up and travelling for multiple regattas per year within a 3-4 hour drive of the city, and of course during normal winters, usually 3-4 of us will have our boats living down in Florida for the winter circuit.

It's been a season or two since I've sailed my boat in Boston Harbor (the inner harbor is a bit small for a Viper, but the outer harbor is big enough), and I would totally be up for a visit at your club sometime this season if you want to check out the boats (we could probably wrangle 3-4 to come down for some informal racing).  We're based out of BYC, EYC, and a boatyard in Marblehead, and you're always welcome to come up and sail with us anytime.  That said, I've been looking for a reason to sail down from MHD to the harbor, and this might be our excuse! 

There are loads of us Viperers in the northeast and we're passionate about our fleet--I think we can show you why if you want to chat (let me know).  Also that guy with the panda holding nunchucks knows a thing or two about the fleet also

 

[hoofhearted]

Viper 640 might be a good fit for this application.  Gulf Yachting Association uses them for their interclub racing series. Quite a few fleets along East Coast, West Coast and Florida/Gulf region.  Decent used boat market.  World Championships for 2022 are slated for the East coast, which gives your group plenty of time to become familiar with the 640, gear up, and practice...

 

[IPLore]

If the focus is in involving 20ish to 30ish sailors focus should be on available crew numbers on a consistent basis. Which means fewer people required to make the boat go. All the boats mentioned are good boats. BUT they need bodies to make them perform. At say 24 feet 4 might be minimum. FT7.5's, J70's and 80's need about the same, maybe one more. Vipers are a good candidate needing 2 to 3 and there are used boats to be gathered to make a fleet. 

I second the suggestion that others have made here for the Viper.

Im not involved in the Viper fleet any more but I used to crew on one.   The single most attractive feature on the Viper is it is that it attracts crew, and gets young people involved in sailing.  The friend I sailed with always had lots on enthusiastic younger folks interested in racing on the Viper.  It is lively, dynamic and a great deal of fun. It is sized for 3 people of an approximately average weight so you can put together many crew combinations (2 elephants and a lighter person, 4 teenagers, 3 average guys etcetc).  It was very comfortable for an older but active guy like myself with a massive cockpit.  I really liked the boat.

I also liked the people we met and their active and energetic circuit. It is so much work trying to resuscitate a dying class (The Ultimate 20, 110s etc etc) and even more work trying to launch a new class (The RS 20).   The Viper just seems like one of those steady classes which never exploded and the died....but just keeps growing steadily each year.    Anyway, it seems like a nice enough sport boat which will be around for a couple more decades at least.  An up to date version of the Lightning or Rhodes 19??

Oh and in passing....kudos to the RS guy who posted earlier. I like the RS range of dinghies and take my hat off to everyone supporting our sport.

 

[IPLore]

@boston we are considering using the Versadock systems off moorings (I've already checked that they'd be allowed) to semi-dry sail the boats. Thus avoiding the need to use the hoist and shuffle around the tides.

Versadock will need something a lot lighter than a Melges 20 or J70.

That is pretty much going to focus your search on boats like Viper , VX One (smaller version of Viper), maybe RS21.  Once you get heavier than that then hauling onto Versadock is heavy work.

But Versadock is expensive. Isnt that going to add another $5k per boat to your budget?

 

[sailordude69]

Viper make fun double handed point to point boats too!!!

https://youtu.be/R2_Xy7m5YkQ

 

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

J/80's - you can get decent boats for @ $25k

Too bad there aren’t any available used to build a fleet with. They are in high demand with Worlds happening in Newport in ‘22 and of the few that have come to market in the last few months they have been snapped up extremely quickly. 

 

[glass]

I have a pair of Flying Tiger 10M on aluminum trailers that are available for sale. Asking $55,000 for both.

That is a cheap way to start a fleet because there are a number of FT10s available at similar cost.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Viper 640 might be a good fit for this application.  Gulf Yachting Association uses them for their interclub racing series. Quite a few fleets along East Coast, West Coast and Florida/Gulf region.  Decent used boat market.  World Championships for 2022 are slated for the East coast, which gives your group plenty of time to become familiar with the 640, gear up, and practice...

+ 1 for the Viper . 

Simple fast boat + decent peeps.

 

[glass]

21 hours ago, glass said:
I have a pair of Flying Tiger 10M on aluminum trailers that are available for sale. Asking $55,000 for both.

What are they called "Double Trouble"? lol

Lot less trouble Senator Minimus than what your grandpa had to do to survive Mussolini and the Black Shirts.

  

 

[timber]

I second the suggestion that others have made here for the Viper.

Im not involved in the Viper fleet any more but I used to crew on one.   The single most attractive feature on the Viper is it is that it attracts crew, and gets young people involved in sailing.  The friend I sailed with always had lots on enthusiastic younger folks interested in racing on the Viper.  It is lively, dynamic and a great deal of fun. It is sized for 3 people of an approximately average weight so you can put together many crew combinations (2 elephants and a lighter person, 4 teenagers, 3 average guys etcetc).  It was very comfortable for an older but active guy like myself with a massive cockpit.  I really liked the boat.

I also liked the people we met and their active and energetic circuit. It is so much work trying to resuscitate a dying class (The Ultimate 20, 110s etc etc) and even more work trying to launch a new class (The RS 20).   The Viper just seems like one of those steady classes which never exploded and the died....but just keeps growing steadily each year.    Anyway, it seems like a nice enough sport boat which will be around for a couple more decades at least.  An up to date version of the Lightning or Rhodes 19??

Oh and in passing....kudos to the RS guy who posted earlier. I like the RS range of dinghies and take my hat off to everyone supporting our sport.

The i550 is an updated Lightning. 

 

[bcardarella]

Versadock will need something a lot lighter than a Melges 20 or J70.

That is pretty much going to focus your search on boats like Viper , VX One (smaller version of Viper), maybe RS21.  Once you get heavier than that then hauling onto Versadock is heavy work.

But Versadock is expensive. Isnt that going to add another $5k per boat to your budget?

A club nearby is using Versadock for J/70s without any issue.

 

[RSsailingNA]

RS was working with Versadock in the UK as I don't believe there is anyone selling the product in the US.

They have a updated version that was made for the J70 which can easily cater to lighter boats like the RS21 and Viper.

We can throw some in containers and ship with boats too.

 

[eliboat]

The 110 (24’ btw) is great and I would encourage your group to give it some thought. You can sail from a mooring if that’s a limitation, also very easy to tow and store given its weight and narrow beam.   Sounds like you’re in Hingham. It would be pretty cool if they pulled the trigger on a fleet of 110s to join the boats out Hull (which are actually from across New England).   
 

I’ve seen the viper mentioned a bunch here, and that’s certainly a decent choice, but I’m very surprised nobody has mentioned the VX One, which is a superb sport boat.  This is a bit smaller than your spec (around 20’), but a very agile and fun boat. 

 

[IPLore]

The 110 (24’ btw) is great and I would encourage your group to give it some thought. You can sail from a mooring if that’s a limitation, also very easy to tow and store given its weight and narrow beam.   Sounds like you’re in Hingham. It would be pretty cool if they pulled the trigger on a fleet of 110s to join the boats out Hull (which are actually from across New England).   
 

I’ve seen the viper mentioned a bunch here, and that’s certainly a decent choice, but I’m very surprised nobody has mentioned the VX One, which is a superb sport boat.  This is a bit smaller than your spec (around 20’), but a very agile and fun boat. 

I mentioned the VX One . Its a smaller version of the Viper.  They sail together in a winter series in Sarasota. I have sailed both. Both are good boats. 

I also think the RS looks interesting. I bet if you offered to buy their demo fleet you'd get a great deal.

The VX One is more athletic and dinghy like than the RS 21. Viper is in the middle, more stable than the VX and more sporty than the RX

You wont go wrong with either one of these three and all of them can slide on and off of a versa dock mechanism with ease. Since they are so light....750 lbs +/- ...you could probably find something less expensive than versadock

Organize a demo with all three boats on the same day. It would be great fun and you'd probably get a great turn out of members and people interested in joining a club with a program like this if the demo was well publicized. Then get feedback.  Todd could probbaly help organize it. He could certainly do the RS side of it and I expect he knows who to cal from the Viper and VX suppliers.

 

[pironiero]

i550?

quite cheap, easy to make and fun

if you dont want to get your hands dirty you can hire couple of guys to make these

 

[EYESAILOR]

Choose an active and established one design with an active class association, and existing racing.

That way you can focus your energy on building your own fleet and not get distracted by having to try and kick start a new class.

Also choose a boat with an active builder. Again you dont want to be distracted by trying to resuscitate a class that has ebbed. 

 

[IPLore]

The Viper lacks refinement of the VX-1 and the RS-21 is 1/3 again the price of the VX-1, therefore, chose the VX-1.

I have not sailed the RS but it looks interesting enough to include in a 3 way demo. Plus the "RS" customer service is second to none.

I have sailed both VX and Viper. The difference is not "refinement".  The principle difference is size and stability. The Viper is a bit larger. Thus the typical configuration in a Viper is 3 people (space for 4 light people). The typical VX configuration is 2 people (space for 3 light people) The Viper has a larger keel bulb relative to its overall weight. Thus more stable.  Both have refined contemporary systems compared to the clunkers we grew up sailing and are light years different from the Rhodes 19.  They will both attract younger sailors. 

Importantly they can plane in a comfortable manner downwind in above 10 knots and they are lighter weight and easier to handle than the heavier sport boats like the Melges 24 and J 70.  Vipers have been purchased as club owned boats throughout the Gulf. I think the VX had a club program in Toronto. So both are established and proven designs that are not going to fade away. 

Anyway...enjoy your search and sail the boats before choosing.

 

[IPLore]

I'd be very interested in talking to you more. I lived in Quincy up until last year, I now live in Swampscott, so still not too far away. I love Hingham, I rode my bike through there all the time and would love to see a fleet in Hingham. 

The RS21 was really designed for club style racing. As it's been pointed out, there really aren't any options for a brand new boat for 30K. The RS21 is 40K +/- depending on the options you choose. It's very well balanced and exciting for 3 or 4 sailors, some have even sailed with 5.

The reality is that to build a new keelboat, market it, and support the customers that buy it (the later is the most important) there has to be pretty significant sales margin.

The J70 sold largely off the J Boats name and the promotion by a handful of people, but J Boats nor their dealers really had to put in a lot of effort and therefore maintain their margin. Even with that the boats are expensive and to keep them race ready is way more expensive. And of course if you want to race one be ready to throw down a lot of money to pay for pro sailors in order to even be competitive. For local club scene that they envisage, they could have a local rule banning pros.  I think the real issue is whether they want something as heavy as the J70. For a versa dock system, you want lighter end of the spectrum

To be honest we've invested a ton of money and time on the RS21 yet we're pushing forwards. Steve Clark has a famous (to me at least) quote that it costs more to launch a  one design fleet than it is to send a kid through college. @Steve Clark quote I vaguely remember was along the lines that it is cheaper to start a new college than start a new OD class and likely easier as well.

There's a new fleet headed to San Francisco and Bermuda, some more interest in various parts of North America, lots going on in Europe, we're supplying a fleet of 12 to the US Sailing Chubb Jr. Champs, and the NYYC Resolute Cup. Well done

We will have ex event boats this year and next year, lightly sailed for a significant discount. This. Thus I would not exclude RS21 on its retail price. All of these classes will offer some kind of fleet purchase . RS in particular .

Depending on your timeline, maybe that's a good option for you. Would you like to shoot me an email? Hopefully at least chatting wouldn't hurt. My email is [email protected]

 

[Mambo Kings]

Well I owned Viper #33 and did all the required mods, what a PITA.  The boat never could compete with the tin rig against the carbo Snakes.  It quickly became a money-pit with little reward.  The VX-1 is everything mistake made in the design/build of the 640 corrected.  It's just a vastly superior boat.

You are not really comparing like with like.  As you point out Viper #33 was built many years before the  Class Association and Rondar partnered to fundamentally redesign and upgrade the boat including a carbon rig prior to relaunching the class.    

I dont think the VX is superior to the Viper or vice versa.  Both are well constructed. Both are nice boats. Both have modern systems and rigs.  The modern Viper turned a fundamentally great hull shape into a very refined offering. Hundreds of the new boats have been sold and it is a successful class

The two boats meet different needs.   They are different sized boat.  The people who sail them meet at sarasota each year and there is a lot of mutual respect.  Several years ago, there was some rivalry when the Gulf Yachting Association was trying to choose between the Viper and the VX (and each claimed to be "vastly superior" to the other) but that has long since passed .  A VX sailor will step into a Viper and compliment the boat. A Viper sailor will step into a VX and enjoy the VX.  I have sailed my Viper with several VX sailors and they always compliment the boat.  The reality IMHO is that both boats are "vastly superior" to older displacement designs.  They have brought back the joy of one design sailing with light, easy, fast, fun and affordable One Design sailing. They have increased participation in the sport.  Between the two of them, the difference is about size and personal preference for how you want to sail.

 

[RSsailingNA]

You are not really comparing like with like.  As you point out Viper #33 was built many years before the  Class Association and Rondar partnered to fundamentally redesign and upgrade the boat including a carbon rig prior to relaunching the class.    

I dont think the VX is superior to the Viper or vice versa.  Both are well constructed. Both are nice boats. Both have modern systems and rigs.  The modern Viper turned a fundamentally great hull shape into a very refined offering. Hundreds of the new boats have been sold and it is a successful class

The two boats meet different needs.   They are different sized boat.  The people who sail them meet at sarasota each year and there is a lot of mutual respect.  Several years ago, there was some rivalry when the Gulf Yachting Association was trying to choose between the Viper and the VX (and each claimed to be "vastly superior" to the other) but that has long since passed .  A VX sailor will step into a Viper and compliment the boat. A Viper sailor will step into a VX and enjoy the VX.  I have sailed my Viper with several VX sailors and they always compliment the boat.  The reality IMHO is that both boats are "vastly superior" to older displacement designs.  They have brought back the joy of one design sailing with light, easy, fast, fun and affordable One Design sailing. They have increased participation in the sport.  Between the two of them, the difference is about size and personal preference for how you want to sail.

I think you bring up a really good point. From a manufacturer's perspective, there are certainly different target customers here, unfortunately the sailing world is small so there is a lot of overlap. 

Here's my personal opinion of each of their attributes sort of in order from sporty/dinghy like to true keelboat.

Established fleets aside, they all truly cater to a different type of sailor. 

VX- Sporty dinghy like exciting boat

Viper - Sporty, little less dinghy feel more keelboat feel

Melges 24 - Sporty with lots of power yet still a keelboat feel

RS21 - Semi-sporty true keelboat feel but with some dinghy like feel and very balanced platform

J70/Melges 20 - Semi-Sporty, true keelboat feel with lots of power

Sonar/J22/J24 - True displacement keelboat feel with rich histories 

I've got to be honest, if you asked me personally which of the list I'd like to race, it'd be a VX. But then again, I don't spent much time hiking and from my last experience on a Viper it's brutal to hop it not in hiking shape and the 21 is really nice that it eliminates that. 

That's why I believe in the RS21 for a club boat, it's a blend of everything for a club looking to reach a broad membership base with an approachable boat.

That being said, as people might prefer something different from One Design, they might prefer something different for their club and at the end of the day you have to choose what's best for your club. We would of course love to be the boat for everywhere, but we're happy to fall in where the boat fits the needs of the sailors.