Should Politicians be allowed to lie??

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
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2,104
Back to the desert
I saw a bit of thread drift happening over on the MTG Terrorist Cunt thread regarding the ability for politicians to be able to lie.  I thought it was an important enough topic to stand alone.  A recent article that came out has been bugging me regarding the LEGAL ability for candidates and politicians in office to lie.

So while I get the 1st Am aspect of this as lies = free speech in politics - I do have a huge issue with this.  I do not think that candidates should be allowed to blatantly lie and once in office they most definitely should not be allowed to lie to their constituents.  As someone said over on the MTG thread:

One of the comments on a youtube highlight of her time in the seat said something like "telling the truth should be an oath of any elected office".  I will go one further and anyone running for office should be sworn under penalty of criminal perjury, as part of their registration to run for elected office, to be truthful.  And that oath continues after they are elected and while in office.  Heck, it should be valid for any civil servant also as a condition of employment.  Why can't that happen?
I do think politicians should be required to be truthful to the max extent possible and not just when under oath in a court of law.  Obviously, being under oath overrides this so called 1st Am "right to free speech".  So why can't we just make a politician have to be "under oath" (except for maybe Nat Security reasons) the entire time he or she is in office???  

If the FCC can regulate commercial speech, then I want the FEC to do the same with political speech.  I think if we could rein (or maybe it's reign - Hi Tom!) this in - we wouldn't have so many issues with our politics and gov't.  

 

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
7,215
2,070
Wet coast.
There was a time when being caught in a blatant lie meant you had to resign.  I can recall several cases of this in my province back in the 80's.

Things have really changed.

I can't remember a time when politicians were expected to live up to their campaign promises.  Did that ever happen?

 
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Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
94,312
11,825
Earth
The only way it stops is if victims of their bullshitting drag them into court and swear them in to answer for it, like Dominion is doing, and The Sandy Hook parents are doing. Take everything they have, or will ever earn, and it will get attention. 

 

d'ranger

Super Anarchist
29,214
4,308
Build the wall - empty promise. Lock her up? Different story and should be actionable.  We don't need more laws, we need to be more responsible and hold them accountable especially at the ballot box.

 

Marty Gingras

Mid-range Anarchist
Having the FCC be arbiter of truth in political speech would make it too easy for 'the government' to bias campaigning and far to easy for the perception of bias to really mess things up.

“If there be time to expose through discussion, the falsehoods and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.” --- Justice Louis D. Brandeis

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,860
I saw a bit of thread drift happening over on the MTG Terrorist Cunt thread regarding the ability for politicians to be able to lie.  I thought it was an important enough topic to stand alone.  A recent article that came out has been bugging me regarding the LEGAL ability for candidates and politicians in office to lie.

So while I get the 1st Am aspect of this as lies = free speech in politics - I do have a huge issue with this.  I do not think that candidates should be allowed to blatantly lie and once in office they most definitely should not be allowed to lie to their constituents.  As someone said over on the MTG thread:

I do think politicians should be required to be truthful to the max extent possible and not just when under oath in a court of law.  Obviously, being under oath overrides this so called 1st Am "right to free speech".  So why can't we just make a politician have to be "under oath" (except for maybe Nat Security reasons) the entire time he or she is in office???  

If the FCC can regulate commercial speech, then I want the FEC to do the same with political speech.  I think if we could rein (or maybe it's reign - Hi Tom!) this in - we wouldn't have so many issues with our politics and gov't.  
It's problematic for several reasons, first off is separation of powers. Judicial branch deciding who can and who can't be in office is a serious problem. Judicial is appointed and the least democratic branch. 

Moreover are the problems of "If you believe it, it's not a lie",  have to prove what someone is thinking or not thinking, and the undeniable fact that We The People pretty much demand politicians tell us what We want to hear to get our votes. The only effective enforcement is We deciding we won't vote for liars. As Don Trump got like 74 million votes We shouldn't don't hold your breath waiting for that shit to happen anytime soon. The problem is Us. Democracy can not be idiot-proofed. 

 

Olsonist

Disgusting Liberal Elitist
29,446
4,243
New Oak City
Marge, like Shitstain, was elected to own liberals. Telling the truth was not in the job description. At a certain point, already reached, you have to blame the believers rather than the liars.

 
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Bus Driver

Bacon Quality Control Specialist
Given how many posters in PA have a special version of Tourette's in which they reflexively blurt our "Lie!" to anything with which they disagree, this is unworkable. 

The same shit will happen IRL and we will get bogged down on what distinguishes a lie from hyperbole from exaggeration.  

 

SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
68,784
12,409
Great Wet North
The problem with political "lies" is that few people make a distinction between Trump style lies and a pol who make a promise in good faith but for whatever reason is unable to later deliver on it.

If a pol promises a program but the economy later tanks so no revenue to pay for it - is that a "lie"?

All too many people say yes.

 

Blue Crab

benthivore
16,226
2,618
Outer Banks
“If there be time to expose through discussion, the falsehoods and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.” --- Justice Louis D. Brandeis
Brandeis didn't foresee Fox News or Facebook. Even debate has lost its original meaning, and Education isn't averting much evil these days.

 

Navig8tor

Super Anarchist
7,536
1,973
Politicians Lie because there’s money involved, first thing is take the money out of politics, hard to do now because of entrenched lobbyists and corps donating to further their agendas.

Expecting The pollies to suddenly stop lying without removing the incentives to do so, well good luck with that, oaths don’t mean shit these days because money makes everything malleable.

 

Bus Driver

Bacon Quality Control Specialist
The problem with political "lies" is that few people make a distinction between Trump style lies and a pol who make a promise in good faith but for whatever reason is unable to later deliver on it.

If a pol promises a program but the economy later tanks so no revenue to pay for it - is that a "lie"?

All too many people say yes.
A campaign promise not kept is not a lie. 

If the promise is broken by the politician, the politician is untrustworthy.  If it can't be kept because of obstruction, the opposition is untrustworthy.

But, a politician making shit up, out of thin air (see the defeated ex-President for tens of thousands of examples), or knowingly telling a falsehood for political gain or self-preservation (see the transcript of the recent MTG hearing), that is an entirely different scenario.  They are liars.

 

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
26,635
3,743
Suwanee River
We The People: "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?"

 Marjorie Taylor Green, Jim Jordan, Matt Gaetz, Donald J. Trump, Et al: " I don't remember.... I don't recall that part of.... I don't think so.... No.... I mean, yes, but that's not what I meant!...."

 

Blue Crab

benthivore
16,226
2,618
Outer Banks
Oaths mean nothing.

I think one thing that might help is to have all the critters stay where they live. This keeps politics local and  more watchoverable by home news sources and saves travel expense not needed in the 21st century.

And hell if you want to offer me a job tomorrow that paid $174k +++++ and I had to have polygraphs to keep it ... PM me right now.

 

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
26,635
3,743
Suwanee River
Oaths mean nothing.

I think one thing that might help is to have all the critters stay where they live. This keeps politics local and  more watchoverable by home news sources and saves travel expense not needed in the 21st century.

And hell if you want to offer me a job tomorrow that paid $174k +++++ and I had to have polygraphs to keep it ... PM me right now.
Oaths mean everything.

 IF you ever want to be trusted again. Your word is your oath of honor. If you have no honor, you can not be trusted.

 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,605
2,104
Back to the desert
There was a time when being caught in a blatant lie meant you had to resign.  I can recall several cases of this in my province back in the 80's.

Things have really changed.

I can't remember a time when politicians were expected to live up to their campaign promises.  Did that ever happen?
There's a difference between a campaign promise and an outright lie.  A campaign promise is more aspirational and often are overcome by events once they get in office.  So I'm less inclined to call that the same thing.  I mean unless I was promised Hookers and Blow 24/7 at my whim on demand.  THEN I would most definitely want the pol to live up to his/her promises.  

 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,605
2,104
Back to the desert
The only way it stops is if victims of their bullshitting drag them into court and swear them in to answer for it, like Dominion is doing, and The Sandy Hook parents are doing. Take everything they have, or will ever earn, and it will get attention. 
I agree.  But I think those cases have huge uphill climbs to make it stick given that courts have long upheld politicians and candidates right to outright lie.  I think they will only ever be able to sue is when it crosses the legal slander, defamation and libel hurdle.  And you of all people should know that those cases are often exceedingly hard to win. 

I think what I'm getting at is lowering the legal bar to sue, sanction or even imprison pols for deliberately lying to the people they serve.  

Ofc, then you get into the murky area now of what is "truth".  Shame that, because I once thought truth was pretty easy to define and identify.  Not so much now these days.  

 

Sea warrior

Super Anarchist
2,899
561
Chicagoish
I saw a bit of thread drift happening over on the MTG Terrorist Cunt thread regarding the ability for politicians to be able to lie.  I thought it was an important enough topic to stand alone.  A recent article that came out has been bugging me regarding the LEGAL ability for candidates and politicians in office to lie.

So while I get the 1st Am aspect of this as lies = free speech in politics - I do have a huge issue with this.  I do not think that candidates should be allowed to blatantly lie and once in office they most definitely should not be allowed to lie to their constituents.  As someone said over on the MTG thread:

I do think politicians should be required to be truthful to the max extent possible and not just when under oath in a court of law.  Obviously, being under oath overrides this so called 1st Am "right to free speech".  So why can't we just make a politician have to be "under oath" (except for maybe Nat Security reasons) the entire time he or she is in office???  

If the FCC can regulate commercial speech, then I want the FEC to do the same with political speech.  I think if we could rein (or maybe it's reign - Hi Tom!) this in - we wouldn't have so many issues with our politics and gov't.  
When I saw the title I was certain this thread was going to be about Sleepy Joey’s cognitive decline.

Silly me…..

lol

 




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