Showtime capsize on return trip

Jason Ker

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I don't think I'd want to go forward on a design contract in that situation.
We quote consistent fees for keel designs, which we think represents the work required,  including extensive FEA with NX Nastran.  The owner of a second hand boat Is free to make his choice to use us or go elsewhere

 

fastyacht

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We quote consistent fees for keel designs, which we think represents the work required,  including extensive FEA with NX Nastran.  The owner of a second hand boat Is free to make his choice to use us or go elsewhere
So it was a 2nd hand mod?

 

pulpit

Super Anarchist
As far as I'm aware this was the only example of a Ker design with a keel not designed by us.  Allegedly we were overpriced.


I don't think I'd want to go forward on a design contract in that situation.


I guess they got what they paid for.


someone commissioned a competition build from an upper-tier designer and upper-tier builder.... and then said "but, hey, I want to see if I can save a few pennies by having someone else design/build the keel"....?

Boggles the mind.
Now boys and girls,

Before you get on the price bandwagon and have ago at the owner for being a cheapskate and not spending the dollars with Jason or MaConaghy’s stop and have a think about this. 

Jason is based in England and his work is charged out in English pounds and the Australian owner is paying in Australian dollars and it’s almost a 2 to 1 difference in the pound to the au dollar, $1 au dollar is currently buying 0.53 pounds. So Jason is the best first option if money is no option. I’ve worked with Andy Dovell and he is a very well respected naval architecture and was the one who designed the Keel package for the modifications I understand.  He is Australian based and has worked on many high profile campaigns. He is probably around the same  price of Jason for the design work. The difference is he is paid in Australian dollars not pounds. 

As far as McConaghy’s goes, they are a very busy company and their prices reflect this and even finding a slot to do the work is a problem for small jobs. 

So please don’t have ago at the owner for trying to improve his boat on a budget. We have many great Boat builders here is Australia with lots based to NSW who are equal to the standards of McConaghy’s and are a lot cheaper as they don’t have the overheads or  100 ft owners to deal with. 

Pulpit

 

fastyacht

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We may never get the answer to that question. 
In the Whitbread in 93-94, "Dolphin and Youth" almost lost the keel between Australia and Chile. There was a tense satphone call between the boat and the Humphreys design office about what to do with the problem. Interestinglty the skipper was also a Humphries (Matt, different spelling/unrealted). After the transatlantic the boat was on the hard and gettng worked on. There was a lot of cracking in the ffinish around the keel. "Oh, it's the fairing cracking." Well, my thought at the time and I expressed it, was that there was too much movement. After the race I was told about it by the crewmember who I'd talked to that day. IT was quite illuminating.

 
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SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
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Great Wet North
So the question remains, "why did the keel fall off?"
It's not a question.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

Pretty simple really.

Seems like people have forgotten when that didn't happen. Back in the G.O.D.'s (40 years ago) it was essentially unheard of for a keel to fall off - particularly when it wasn't caused by damage like a severe grounding.

Now it seems the attitude is more like "The keel fell off? Bummer".

 

fastyacht

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It's not a question.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

Pretty simple really.

Seems like people have forgotten when that didn't happen. Back in the G.O.D.'s (40 years ago) it was essentially unheard of for a keel to fall off - particularly when it wasn't caused by damage like a severe grounding.

Now it seems the attitude is more like "The keel fell off? Bummer".
DRUM was the first big one I remember. Then it started happening with surprising regulariry. Mike Plant. Then Isabelle Autissier. And quite a few others.

 

Moonduster

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Submerged container would do the trick.

Yeah, no. The GL grounding case, and GL scantlings are required for an IRC certificate, is specifically designs so that a grounding will not result in keel loss Not to mention that submerged containers are at the bottom, not magically suspended in the water column.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

A typically simplistic analysis. First, the boat wasn't built to hold this keel on. That said, it is unlikely that the new keel arrangement significantly changed the RM as this would necessitate a new mast, new chain plates, new standing rigging and substantial new structure throughout the yacht as these things are engineered as a system and are highly interdependent. It is more likely that the new fin was deeper and lighter, reducing weight while maintaining the same RM and that the structure in the yacht is not a likely point of failure. I would expect the keel design and/or construction and/or the fasteners.

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
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Submerged container would do the trick.

Yeah, no. The GL grounding case, and GL scantlings are required for an IRC certificate, is specifically designs so that a grounding will not result in keel loss Not to mention that submerged containers are at the bottom, not magically suspended in the water column.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

A typically simplistic analysis. First, the boat wasn't built to hold this keel on. That said, it is unlikely that the new keel arrangement significantly changed the RM as this would necessitate a new mast, new chain plates, new standing rigging and substantial new structure throughout the yacht as these things are engineered as a system and are highly interdependent. It is more likely that the new fin was deeper and lighter, reducing weight while maintaining the same RM and that the structure in the yacht is not a likely point of failure. I would expect the keel design and/or construction and/or the fasteners.
Utter speculation. Righting moment theory plausible.

 

Moonduster

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Sure, of course it's utter speculation - there's no data available. Thank you for stating the obvious. But by comparison, the other speculation is highly implausible.

 

us7070

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It is more likely that the new fin was deeper and lighter, reducing weight while maintaining the same RM
i can't find the post anymore - but didn't the owner post here or in the other thread that the new keel had less righting moment than the old one?

 

mad

Super Anarchist
i can't find the post anymore - but didn't the owner post here or in the other thread that the new keel had less righting moment than the old one?


This one?

Rawhide
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Rawhide
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Report post   #2549
Posted 10 hours ago
As some here know I am one of the owners of Showtime and do all the offshore races in it.

Just to throw a few facts into the uninformed opinion. 

The keel was designed by Andy Dovell, to a similar design he has used for many other yachts. The design and the fabrication plan were then certified by DNV-GL. The builder then signed off on the fabrication report and provided 100% NDT for certification. All of this was required to obtain the ISAF certificate you need to be able to race offshore these days. Not exactly a half assed exercise.

The new keel design has reduced bulb weight by 369kg and fin by 318kg, despite the increase in length of 400mm this has reduced the righting moment of the boat and resulted in lower loads on the structure than under the original configuration. So despite Jason Ker's self serving bleating's, he remains solely responsible for the adequacy of the internal structural design. Whether this in anyway caused or contributed to the keel lose, I don't know, nor does anyone else at this time.   

The delivery crew, who were quite experienced and who can be credited with the positive outcome in a very dangerous situation can not be faulted in their seamanship under difficult conditions. 

I am only happy that all crew got off safely from what was a harrowing experience where only cool thinking averted a tragedy. I have no interest in playing some blame game. if the boat is recovered, then we will likely be able to positively identify the failure mechanism, but until then it is pure speculation to say who is or isn't responsible. 

 

RobbieB

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Charleston, SC
The way you wash your hands of the problem makes me think you are actually the Australian PM with a sock puppet account.
There's a lot in Jason's statement.  Things with "We didn't design the keel" mean:

1)- We didn't have anything to do with this, which leads to...

2)- Was it heavier that the attachment point was designed to handle?

3)- Was it improperly attached by the people who mounted it?

4)- Was the design too heavy in the bottom, (bulb?) for the hull to support?

5)- Was the attachment properly designed by the designer?

A ton of questions here folks....

 
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