Singapore Does What We've All Been Thinking...

accnick

Super Anarchist
3,212
2,225
When someone has only been a firefighter for 17 years It reallycisnt a choice.

Then again free will iscimaginary anyway
Of course it is a choice: get vaccinated, or risk losing your pension. You can make whichever choice you prefer. Not all choices are between steak and lobster.

 

rockb

Member
92
29
Florida
Supposing the slippery slope is started down, can you imagine having to prove your lung cancer was not caused by smoking? 
  • And obesity was not caused by overeating
  • Liver issue not caused by excessive alcohol consumption
  • .
  • .
  • .



For everyone advocating for non vaccinated not getting free treatment are you also in support of:

  • Drug addicts being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of an OD.  They made the choice to ingest that poison.
  • The severally obese being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of a heart attack. They made the choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
  • The lifelong smoker being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of lung failure.  They made the choice to destroy their lungs.
  • .
  • .
  • .


 

danstanford

Anarchist
674
175
Lake Ontario
  • And obesity was not caused by overeating
  • Liver issue not caused by excessive alcohol consumption
  • .
  • .
  • .



For everyone advocating for non vaccinated not getting free treatment are you also in support of:

  • Drug addicts being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of an OD.  They made the choice to ingest that poison.
  • The severally obese being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of a heart attack. They made the choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
  • The lifelong smoker being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of lung failure.  They made the choice to destroy their lungs.
  • .
  • .
  • .
Quite honestly I think most of the people I pointed this action out to were if favor of the tactic of making the unvaccinated pay for their own treatment. It is a moral high ground we all love to preach from....just ask our kids. Once I asked the follow up questions as you have above there was a substantial shift in consideration and much more thought on the topic. This just proves I have friends with good hearts and heads. 

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
62,304
5,504
De Nile
  • And obesity was not caused by overeating
  • Liver issue not caused by excessive alcohol consumption
  • .
  • .
  • .



For everyone advocating for non vaccinated not getting free treatment are you also in support of:

  • Drug addicts being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of an OD.  They made the choice to ingest that poison.
  • The severally obese being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of a heart attack. They made the choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
  • The lifelong smoker being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of lung failure.  They made the choice to destroy their lungs.
  • .
  • .
  • .
Folks in the US already pay for treatment, since we don't have single-payer, so it's a hypothetical. I could easily see a US insurance company charging more for non-vaxx'ed status. 

But as I understand it, under civilized country rules, yeah, treatment is either covered by the state, or not, depending on many things. So, yeah, it's up to that country to figure it out. 

 

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
7,189
2,058
Wet coast.
  • And obesity was not caused by overeating
  • Liver issue not caused by excessive alcohol consumption
  • .
  • .
  • .



For everyone advocating for non vaccinated not getting free treatment are you also in support of:

  • Drug addicts being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of an OD.  They made the choice to ingest that poison.
  • The severally obese being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of a heart attack. They made the choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
  • The lifelong smoker being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of lung failure.  They made the choice to destroy their lungs.
  • .
  • .
  • .
What if all the above could be cured by going and getting a shot - and then you decided not to or just never got around to it?

That's the difference with covid.  All the above require significant lifestyle changes or mental health treatment to overcome.  Covid just needs a vaccine to reduce your chance of severe covid to near zero. 

Getting vaccinated takes less time and hassle than renewing your driver's license.  If you don't do it and get severe covid, there isn't much excuse.

 

RobG

Super Anarchist
2,874
749
What if all the above could be cured by going and getting a shot - and then you decided not to or just never got around to it?

That's the difference with covid.  All the above require significant lifestyle changes or mental health treatment to overcome.  Covid just needs a vaccine to reduce your chance of severe covid to near zero. 

Getting vaccinated takes less time and hassle than renewing your driver's license.  If you don't do it and get severe covid, there isn't much excuse.
Sure, but why is Covid singled out in regard to vaccination? Some of the laws being introduced have the potential to be draconian. In Queensland you'll have to show proof of double vaccination status just to buy a coffee. If you don't, or the shop owner serves you without first seeking proof, both are liable for up to 6 months in jail. That's in a state that has had just 537 local cases in the 18 months since Covid was a thing, and is at 88% first vax and 78% double vax status.

My issue with the new laws is that they are far in excess if what is reasonable and will have zero effect on Covid transmission in the state. My take is that the vast majority will just ignore them and police won't bother enforcing them unless there's an outbreak.

 

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
7,189
2,058
Wet coast.
Sure, but why is Covid singled out in regard to vaccination? Some of the laws being introduced have the potential to be draconian. In Queensland you'll have to show proof of double vaccination status just to buy a coffee. If you don't, or the shop owner serves you without first seeking proof, both are liable for up to 6 months in jail. That's in a state that has had just 537 local cases in the 18 months since Covid was a thing, and is at 88% first vax and 78% double vax status.

My issue with the new laws is that they are far in excess if what is reasonable and will have zero effect on Covid transmission in the state. My take is that the vast majority will just ignore them and police won't bother enforcing them unless there's an outbreak.
It is great that you have had so little impact from the virus where you are.  Trust me, you want it to stay that way, and take whatever precautions you can.  Having ICU's at capacity with covid patients really farks up your health care system.  

That is what health authorities are trying to do with the vaccine.  If everybody is vaccinated, it is really hard for the virus to get a foothold and start infecting others exponentially.  

Having to be vaccinated to get a coffee is a strategy to get the holdouts who were just putting it off for no good reason to get the jab.  It isn't about preventing transmission at the coffee shop.  As for the devout anti-vaxxers, nothing will change their minds.  Maybe if everybody else gets vaccinated we can save their sorry asses.

 

RobG

Super Anarchist
2,874
749
That is what health authorities are trying to do with the vaccine.  If everybody is vaccinated, it is really hard for the virus to get a foothold and start infecting others exponentially.  
I'm  not arguing with the strategy, but with the tactics. The current laws will not make any difference to the vaccination rate, if for no other reason than very few people will follow the law anyway, so where is the pressure to get vaccinated? Unvaccinated people can still do most things, including being served at drive–through food outlets.

 

Steveromagnino

Super Anarchist
For everyone advocating for non vaccinated not getting free treatment are you also in support of:

  • Drug addicts being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of an OD.  They made the choice to ingest that poison.
  • The severally obese being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of a heart attack. They made the choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
  • The lifelong smoker being turned away at the door to the ER when in the midst of lung failure.  They made the choice to destroy their lungs.
  •  
They aren't being turned away, they are just being asked to pay their fair share.

Which as per the examples above would be roughly in the ballpark of people with history of drug abuse, obesity, smokers pay higher rates for insurance (or are unable to secure insurance) due to being higher risk by virtue of the lifestyle they lead; so exactly what applies for COVID.  So your example is pretty much the same.  Note that people who drink are often turned away from transplant lists precisely because of the decisions they made, so again, same.  In NZ the means testing system means people with money (at least previously) pay more for healthcare than people without who are fully subsidised.  Life isn't fair, people pay what they can, and if someone doesn't want to take a voluntary action to help themselves (not drink not be fat not get vaccinated, not do drugs) then they might end up slightly worse off later - now we can talk about how addicts etc get a rough deal...but so do people who are born poor/handicapped/terminally ill etc.  Life isn't that fair.  Healthcare is a finite resource with a finite budget, so its reasonable to have somewhat cost reflective allocation with a safety net underneath for the ppl who can't afford it.
 

 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
So basically Singapore is saying if you don’t get vaccinated, then catch COVID, you will be treated like an American. Unreasonable punishment for a civilized country, right?
The gov can see the only reason to end up in the ICU with covid is being unvaxed, when the vax is free.

Its costing the gov huge sums for long stay in ICU.

 
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SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
68,713
12,364
Great Wet North
I've never been a fan of the Singapore government - benevolent dictatorships are still dictatorships.

But...

I this case I have no problem - willfully unvaxxed people should pay the freight for their stupidity.

 

PNW-LSJ

New member
18
9
PNW
The gov can see the only reason to end up in the ICU with covid is being unvaxed, when the vax is free.

Its costing the gov huge sums for long stay in ICU.
The vax is free? See any of the Vax makers profits? Moderna got a billion of US taxpayer $ to make theirs, then were promptly rewarded with a 1.5 billion dollar order from the US government, for the vaccine taxpayers paid to create. Shit that’s 2.5 billion USD right there, paid from one country, to one company. 

 

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
7,189
2,058
Wet coast.
The vax is free? See any of the Vax makers profits? Moderna got a billion of US taxpayer $ to make theirs, then were promptly rewarded with a 1.5 billion dollar order from the US government, for the vaccine taxpayers paid to create. Shit that’s 2.5 billion USD right there, paid from one country, to one company. 
This is peanuts.  Check out the defense budget in comparison.  Finally something comes along that benefits actual individual people and folks think it is too much.

In the past many countries had their own publicly-owned vaccine production facilities - then conservative economic policy had them privatized.  This is the result.  If you don't like it, blame those policies.

 
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Raz'r

Super Anarchist
62,304
5,504
De Nile
The vax is free? See any of the Vax makers profits? Moderna got a billion of US taxpayer $ to make theirs, then were promptly rewarded with a 1.5 billion dollar order from the US government, for the vaccine taxpayers paid to create. Shit that’s 2.5 billion USD right there, paid from one country, to one company. 
$50/person for the vax.

$5000/night on a vent

do the math

 

ShortForBob

Super Anarchist
34,920
2,781
Melbourne
The vax is free? See any of the Vax makers profits? Moderna got a billion of US taxpayer $ to make theirs, then were promptly rewarded with a 1.5 billion dollar order from the US government, for the vaccine taxpayers paid to create. Shit that’s 2.5 billion USD right there, paid from one country, to one company. 
That's what TFG calls great business. 

 

ShortForBob

Super Anarchist
34,920
2,781
Melbourne
Hey Rainman.

Read that article again very carefully.

I don't think it means that the unvaccinated are being refused treatment.

I think it means that whereas for other treatments/injury/ illness pre covid, there was a public/private system of co payments and gov payments. Gov subsidizing some treatments to a greater or lesser extent. (they prolly have a book of scheuled fees with about 50,000 items just like we in Australia do)

When the pandemic took off, Singapore gov started paying all all Covid costs  to prevent confusion and encourage people to get treated.

Now they are simply not going to do that anymore for the unvaccinated.

W

 

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
7,189
2,058
Wet coast.
Hey Rainman.

Read that article again very carefully.

I don't think it means that the unvaccinated are being refused treatment.

I think it means that whereas for other treatments/injury/ illness pre covid, there was a public/private system of co payments and gov payments. Gov subsidizing some treatments to a greater or lesser extent. (they prolly have a book of scheuled fees with about 50,000 items just like we in Australia do)

When the pandemic took off, Singapore gov started paying all all Covid costs  to prevent confusion and encourage people to get treated.

Now they are simply not going to do that anymore for the unvaccinated.

W
I don't think anyone here said or thought it did.  

 




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