Single Point Pick of Flying Tiger 10m?

[Marinevibe]

Does anyone have a set up for single point picking of a Flying Tiger that does not involve water bags on the bow?

Looking to drysail one on a weekly basis. Figure there has to be a better way than having the bulb support the weight of the hull. Ideally trying to configure something similar to how a Melges 24 is lifted.

Anyone have any modifications that they have incorporated? i.e lifting points on the keel box? Adding lifting point under the floor boards? Both former examples to accomplish same configuration as Melges 24 (hook on keel and then straps to hull lift points).

What about keeping the back end up? Running a line back aft and then to lift hook just pulls the hull into the aft edge of the keel…

Anyone with a similar lifting keel design have any insight to offer?

I have already had considerable conversations with Bob Perry (the designer) and Kyle Hirsh, and feel it might be beneficial to open the discussion to other FT10 owners as well as other sport boats with lifting keels.

 

[Bob Perry]

Joe: Please give me another call on this. I'll be here all day unless I am out walking the dogs. If I don't pick up call me back in an hour. I'll dig through the drawing files this morning and see what I can find that is relevant. I have found several drawing files than will help you.

 

[Marinevibe]

Thanks Bob for the additional drawings! Truly a pleasure to deal with someone that will take a call on something that he designed almost 18 years ago...and a great design at that!

 

[Team Subterfuge]

Marinevibe- Please share what you come up with.

 

[robalex117]

We had one at our YC that did a single point lift. They ran lines to the stern back to where the spin blocks were attached. As you point out the boat is bow up so they used those lines to keep the stern up. It worked ok for a bunch of years. Then one day one of the stern attachment points ripped out of the deck and the mast went crashing back and hit the crane, (stern went way down) and busted up the carbon mast. Insurance company totaled the boat and that was that. Boat never sailed again as far as I know at least not in our area of WLIS.

For the J105 instead of going all the way back to the stern we just pull the lifting strap back with two lines attached to the cabin top winches. Makes it much easier to adjust less line to stretch and all and all a much better process.

Not familiar with the FT10 but assume there are two cabin top winches to use. Not sure why the FT guy at our club did not do that but that is what I would do especially after seeing that happened to his boat. Also as I point out using the winch makes adjustment possible as you dial in the process.

 

[Varan]

Easier if lift locations is aft of the center of gravity. A line through the top of the lift strap around the mast prevents the boat from going too bow down.

 

[robalex117]

Easier if lift locations is aft of the center of gravity. A line through the top of the lift strap around the mast prevents the boat from going too bow down.

Guess that can work if you have enough throw in your system and the hook can be high. But on bigger boats you need to lift very high so you need the hook as low as possible and line forward won't work. Also many times you need to pull the lifting strap back so it won't hit the hatch. Here is a J105 getting setup for lift. Using the winches the adjust lines. Advantage of using two lines going aft is helps keep the boat more secure from rocking.

 

[Marinevibe]

Guess that can work if you have enough throw in your system and the hook can be high. But on bigger boats you need to lift very high so you need the hook as low as possible and line forward won't work. Also many times you need to pull the lifting strap back so it won't hit the hatch. Here is a J105 getting setup for lift. Using the winches the adjust lines. Advantage of using two lines going aft is helps keep the boat more secure from rocking.
View attachment 582602

Fixed keel/lifting keel…two different animals, just running lines aft pulls the boat into the trailing edge of your keel. Said another way, destroys all the fairing you did on that keel this spring.

 

[Team Subterfuge]

Marinevibe- Are you trying to single-point lift the boat with the keel up or down? I have seen the boat lifted by the keel plate with the hull resting on the bulb (with one or more garbage can on the bow full of water and lines run from the crane lifting hook to the spin sheet pad eyes for balance), and I never saw a problem with the trailing edge of the keel pulled back against the aft edge of the keel box. I just assumed the shape of the bulb against the bottom of the keel box prevented any movement. Although, I was never comfortable with that arrangement and I could envision some failure with the aft lines to the pad eyes that would end in a catastrophe - just like described above.

It seems that the boat balance point is just aft of the keel box and I wondered whether the boat could be single point lifted (with the keel down) if there was a lifting point between the keel box and the companion way steps - or even lifting from two points, one at the keel top plate and the other from the floor aft of the keel box, and the two points connected by a spreader bar. But I am not an engineer and real life issues precluded following up to see if there was a solution.

What exactly are you trying to do and have you come close to something workable?

 

[Team Subterfuge]

Apparently, an alternative to garbage cans filled with water, you can have crew stand on the bow while lifting. Hmmm.

 

[limerunner]

As someone who was eyeing the classifieds and wondering if the F10 didn't tick the boxes for my next dry sailed boat, this post hits close to home. The deafening silence here is that the (normally quite helpful) designer hasn't run in with the solution to the single point pick. Maybe that's because he's not sure it is a good idea? And wouldn't touch that liability?

 

[robalex117]

As someone who was eyeing the classifieds and wondering if the F10 didn't tick the boxes for my next dry sailed boat, this post hits close to home. The deafening silence here is that the (normally quite helpful) designer hasn't run in with the solution to the single point pick. Maybe that's because he's not sure it is a good idea? And wouldn't touch that liability?

I think you may be reading too much into the silence of the designer. I think I read above the designer asked the original post to call him.

 

[Marinevibe]

Easier if lift locations is aft of the center of gravity. A line through the top of the lift strap around the mast prevents the boat from going too bow down.

I think you are thinking of fixed keel of which you can pick on an after keel bolt of which makes the pick aft of c/g. On lifting keels you can have two C/Gs, one with the keel down in place and then another as soon as the keel is not part of the boat.

 

[Marinevibe]

As someone who was eyeing the classifieds and wondering if the F10 didn't tick the boxes for my next dry sailed boat, this post hits close to home. The deafening silence here is that the (normally quite helpful) designer hasn't run in with the solution to the single point pick. Maybe that's because he's not sure it is a good idea? And wouldn't touch that liability?

Designer has been very helpful. Some things to consider are that what the designer envisioned and what the builder provided differ. In addition one has to complement a designer that will stay in touch with something he produced more than fifteen years ago.

 

[Marinevibe]

Marinevibe- Are you trying to single-point lift the boat with the keel up or down? I have seen the boat lifted by the keel plate with the hull resting on the bulb (with one or more garbage can on the bow full of water and lines run from the crane lifting hook to the spin sheet pad eyes for balance), and I never saw a problem with the trailing edge of the keel pulled back against the aft edge of the keel box. I just assumed the shape of the bulb against the bottom of the keel box prevented any movement. Although, I was never comfortable with that arrangement and I could envision some failure with the aft lines to the pad eyes that would end in a catastrophe - just like described above.

It seems that the boat balance point is just aft of the keel box and I wondered whether the boat could be single point lifted (with the keel down) if there was a lifting point between the keel box and the companion way steps - or even lifting from two points, one at the keel top plate and the other from the floor aft of the keel box, and the two points connected by a spreader bar. But I am not an engineer and real life issues precluded following up to see if there was a solution.

What exactly are you trying to do and have you come close to something workable?

You are starting to swerve into where I am going. I do not want the hull to be supported by the bulb and I don’t want to have to deal with having to put weight up on the bow every time you want to pick the boat, supplementary weight is fine for once or twice a year but not on a weekly basis. Keel up vs. keel down will really be dictated by the crane/hoist height. But where I am starting to look is picking with the keel down. Designer has provided a C/G for just the hull and that point is aft of the keel by itself. I don’t think you can pull the keel up without the boat becoming unstable as soon as the keel is free (heck is not that would keeps the boat from tipping?). Here is what I am seeing/thinking:

• Pick the hull separate from the keel, said another way have the hull picked at four points (two aft and two forward). This can be done by putting lifting eyes on the rail…hull to deck joint.
• Have a strap to the keel. This strap is measured so that it lifts the keel an inch or two so that the hull is no longer supporting the weight of the keel, but the keel head is still in the keel box which will provide stability to the boat/mast.
• When the keel is at the point of number two, the straps to the hull then come into play so that you are lifting the keel and hull simultaneously but in essence lifting them separately.

 

[Mambo Kings]

I dont know if this is any help.

The lifting points of the Viper are two either side and slightly aft of the keel on heavy winchard pad eyes installed at the time of the build with heavy backing ...and one point at the bow that takes very little load but keeps the fore aft angle constant.

We launch and hoist with the exact same lifting points and exact same length of bridle, whether the keel is up or down. When we lift the keel, it raises the CoG of the boat but does not move it fore or aft.

Why does lifting the keel of the FT 10 move the CoG in a fore or aft manner?

 

[Mambo Kings]

Apparently, an alternative to garbage cans filled with water, you can have crew stand on the bow while lifting. Hmmm.

No licensed crane operator will ever allow that........and they are right not to.

 

[MattFranzek]

Since the FT10 and Viper are on my short list of boats, this thread is great. The other boat on my short list is the Melges 32. Im assuming you can single point lift a Melges 32 with the same parameters mentioned, hull not resting on the keel, as was the reason for making this thread. Does anyone have any more info about a single point lift system for a Melges 32? Ideaily I would like to hook the crane to the top of the keel, and a bridal for the hull, then pick the boat out of the water.

 

[robalex117]

The only lifting keel boat I sailed was a M24 and it had a system that keeps the keel off the boat. Two straps that went from hoist hook down to the boat. Before the keel could touch the bottom of the boat the straps started taking the load. Terrible picture but only one I could fInd. If you zoom in you can see the straps running down the side of the keel. 2nd picture shows the attachment points on the actual boat for the straps.

By the way hard to beat a M24 as a good boat. See it is not on your short list. Have you ever sailed a M32. When the breeze is up it is a handful!! I can see the FT10, M24 and Viper in the same list but the M32 would be an outlier.

 

[MattFranzek]

The only lifting keel boat I sailed was a M24 and it had a system that keeps the keel off the boat. Two straps that went from hoist hook down to the boat. Before the keel could touch the bottom of the boat the straps started taking the load. Terrible picture but only one I could fInd. If you zoom in you can see the straps running down the side of the keel. 2nd picture shows the attachment points on the actual boat for the straps.

By the way hard to beat a M24 as a good boat. See it is not on your short list. Have you ever sailed a M32. When the breeze is up it is a handful!! I can see the FT10, M24 and Viper in the same list but the M32 would be an outlier.

View attachment 584952

View attachment 584953

Thanks for the pictures. That is what I remember from sailing on a M24, and was wondering if the Melges 32 has the same system for single point launching.

The M24 (PHRF-LE 81) is/was on the list too, but its just so small and if you have ever sailed on the eastern end of Lake Erie in a breeze you now how short and steep the waves can get and the few M24s we struggled in the chop. My family also likes to day sail a bit, and having my 80 year old dad on a M24 just isnt going to work, they are too unstable at the dock. I know all sport boats are not inherently stable at the dock, but the M24 heels more then a lot of boats when you get on/off it. Hence looking for a longer, slightly easier to day sail boat then a M24. We also have a lot of long distance day races, 20-50 miles, and the M24 just seems small for those.

The FT10 (PHRF-LE 45) seems to check the boxes, but the Chinese build issues scare me. We have another here, the owner bought it over the winter, so Ill see how he does this summer. I also dont really like how the boats look, idk, the cabin top and bow just seem slightly off to me. Thats my personal feel, I know the boats are great, but I just dont want something that doesnt look right. (Im also car/truck shopping and have passed on SO many vehicles because something is off.) FT10s are cheap, which is huge, but not everything.

A two Vipers (PHRF-LE 51) have been brought to Buffalo and both have had huge issues. The keel bulb fell off one (bolts broke) and other the mast broke into multiple pieces when being stepped. There is some bad voodoo with Vipers in Buffalo and I am staying away for now. I know both were accidents, but I don't want to risk it... I know two bad accidents don't condemn all of the boats, but Im not testing my karma risking it.

The M32 (PHRF-LE 15) is a lot of boat in heavy air, but it checks a lot of boxes for me. I can trailer it with a normal size SUV/Truck. I think I can dry sail it and keep it in a buddies barn in the winter. There are a LOT of lightly used sails around, and if/when I need new sails, the shapes are very refined by the big 3. They are also becoming proven offshore race boats. Cali guys did the Transpac twice on Ruffless, with mods to the mast and hull for offshore racing. A M32, Hoodlum, won Division 2 (Shore Course) in the Bayview Mac race last year. The M32s are also starting to drop in price to where I can start considering one.

A good buddy, very good Lightning and Laser sailor, bought one of the first Carbon Columbia 32s (PHRF-LE 45) and raced it here. I like the boat, but PHRF-LE gave it a 45 rating and there was nothing we could do to sail to the rating. We never once beat the shittly (they went to a few big regattas and got straight lasts) sailed Mumm 30 around the course even though both have the same rating. We stacked the boat with really good sailors and just couldn't make it go.

For local racing I do care about the PHRF number because thats 45 races a year. The Melges 24 puts me as the slow boat in the Beneteau 36.7, J109, J99, J35 type of fleet. The Columbia 32 and Viper would put me as the slow boat in the fleet with the Beneteau 40.7, J111, J120, Farr 60 and TP52. The Melges 23 would put me as the third fastest boat behind the TP52 and Farr 60. Those two might get their own fleet soon, so Id be the scratch boat in the fleet, a spot Id rather be in then the slow boat.

I hate to say it, but the M24 for how great a boat it is, just misses a few boxes Id like a boat to check. I am all for any other suggestions on boats that are trailer-able with retractable keels, less then 6,000 lbs (currently the club has a 3 ton crane), has a bow sprit/asym spins, can be sailed in <12kts by 2-4, had/has a strong one design class (boats are just a bit more refined), looks right (this is all personal), not insane to do a <600 mile distance race, and the smiles per miles factor is HIGH with a good crew. Im open to any/all suggestions. It sounds crazy to think Id consider buying a Melges 32, but it checks a LOT of boxes. I am 18-24 months out from buying a big boat, Moth sailing is taking up my time currently, but if the right deal comes up Ill make the switch.