Skipper Handicapping

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
I am interested about how most clubs that handicap skippers do this. I am going to start a Portsmouth fleet in my club but I have not decided if I want to add the handicapping of the crews as well. Do you try to make the adjustment so that everyone can be first or do you do it so that the slower crews end up in the top 25%?

 

ballywho

Super Anarchist
Maybe it's just me but isn't the whole idea of racing handicapped to make it even skipper vs. skipper? Why would you want to handicap the skippers??? All my time racing PHRF andhearing about the latest problems has been hearing about trying to "rate the boat, not the driver". My Dad is on the LIS commitee and is constantly working on these ratings. Our rating has dropped 18 seconds in the past 3 years, mainly because of "rating the skipper". (On that note, does it make sense that a laser 28 rates 3 seconds slower than a J80????)

But I digress, basically, I think it's very strange to rate skippers.... that would have been way easier to say in the first place...

 

Nycer

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rob have a look at sailwave as a piece of software. you can rate the boats py with it and it suggests adjustments that you can use to rate the skipper. Use the adjustment number to change the skippers rating each week. With a system like this you can have a bunch of boats of different type sailing together measuring their effort against eachother (and the qualities of the boat in different conditions). Individual skippers can see how some change they made helps them or not. More performance data is better than less.

every other sport has performance data up the wazoo maybe its about time the RC did something while they soak up the sun between statr and finishing :)

Please , I just have to rave here --- For gods sake people if you report a regatta, list all the bloody results and not just the top few unless you want the middle and back enders not to show up next year and drift out of your fleet.

Ive spent a few years sailing in a large and very good cat fleet using PY. The 49er's PY does quite well around the cans with the H18 and H17's, only a second or two in it most sundays.

I have never seen it here in the states, but handicapping the skipper is common in other countries especially for kids, I have quite a few MJ handicap throphies.

raving again, I guess all the septics know that US dinghy sailors have such robust personalities that if someone gets no recognition and there is no easy way to measure their improvement for all the effort they put in, they at least wont be leaving the sport in droves to go play with a ball, a stick and a few holes.

Club Handicap championship shouldnt be the most prestigious throphy but it sure serves to promote the sport and encourage the up and coming. It rewards improvement, pure and simple.

 

Nycer

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BTW Rob, use the wind speed adjusted PY numbers and if they dont exist for a particular class make them up by consensus, of say what windspeed a boat might start to plane or drop of the plane. Adjust them over a beer (handicapper always has the shout) after the race. No better way to build a fleet than to have a mandatory get-together after the racing and hot showers.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
When our club races leadmines around the cans, they have a get together at the end of the day and hand cups out to the top 3 in each fleet. This sometimes turns into a long party of swapping suds and lies. I think this is probably the most important part of the day.

I don't know how successful the PY fleet will be but there are a number of juniors at different levels and I'd like a way to keep things interesting so that two boats don't always goble up the pickle dishes and discourage the rest. I think my brother and I did this to the Laser fleet when we were young. As soon as who won depended on the wind, light my brother and heavy me, the fleet dropped from 20+ to about 6 diehards. I'd like to avoid this at all cost.

I'll take a look at the software. Thanks.

 

Dog

Super Anarchist
37,940
442
Why don't you just take turns being the winner and dispense with all the racing stuff.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
H'cap = methord of distributing silverware
Exactly!

I know that any kind of handicapping sucks but if it will keep more boats on the water, I'd gladly give up some silver. I have enough pickle dishes around anyway. I also think it might give me a better idea if I was at the top of my form or if I were improving. Since I'll be racing PY, what are a few more points to each crew? OD is by far the easiest way to go but if you don't have any OD fleets, you have to make due with what you have. I'd rather have a motly crew of 20 mixed boats than 5 OD boats. Besides more boats on the water means more dues for the club and racing fees and that means better pickle dishes and fee food. Free suds are a problem in my area.

 

Mid

Blues Rule
H'cap = methord of distributing silverware
Exactly!

I know that any kind of handicapping sucks but if it will keep more boats on the water, I'd gladly give up some silver. I have enough pickle dishes around anyway. I also think it might give me a better idea if I was at the top of my form or if I were improving. Since I'll be racing PY, what are a few more points to each crew? OD is by far the easiest way to go but if you don't have any OD fleets, you have to make due with what you have. I'd rather have a motly crew of 20 mixed boats than 5 OD boats. Besides more boats on the water means more dues for the club and racing fees and that means better pickle dishes and fee food. Free suds are a problem in my area.
once knew a club that altered the numbers progressively through out the season ,

win too much and it gets harder until you lose and free up your h'cap

 

Nycer

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Why don't you just take turns being the winner and dispense with all the racing stuff.
Donno dog, got a better idea - why dont we just give all the prizes to the same three people and the middle and end of the fleet can get out of their way and dispense with the racing

Some people, like Fugu, are watching the sport dwindle and are trying to do figure out why, and do something about it. Kudos are deserved. Its plain that champions ( like you ) are not dropping out but the attrition is becoming a major problem. There are plenty of threads here where some clear thinkers are alarmed about this. A golf style handicap system that "pits the skipper against himself" has been suggested and I tend to agree it might keep the middle fleeters in the game. I dont think its about the silverware, most of us never look at them again after the clapping stops. The only way you can determine if you have done something good to improve is to have a number that you can measure improvement by. Position in the fleet means nothing to someone who is continually swapping places in the middle, 1/2 a lap behind the three leaders. Then again I can see that if there is some cultural difficulty in finding worth in something like sailing against yourself striving for a personal best every weekend, continually improving your skills, ocassionally getting some recognition for that, even if you are not the club champion then there will never be a self rating handicap system and a lot of us should believe the dire predictions of the alarmists and pack it all up now and go golphing on sundays.

 

Kenny

Member
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Midwest USA
Take the top 2 skippers from last year's results and start em 30 secs behind the fleet. As different people win a race they have to start 30 secs behind with the others. When one of the skippers that start 30 secs behind win another race, they then start 1 min behind the fleet.

Decide before the season starts which skippers will be eligible for this starting handicap....you don't want someone from the back of the fleet to start later just because they won 1 race.

I am trying to get this started in our fleet. We're an od fleet and get 8-13 boats on the line. The median finish between the top 2 boats and the last boat was 3 1/2- 4 minutes last year. Same boats at the top.....same at the bottom every race.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
Since we are going to do PY races, I don't want to apply the handicap at the start. I'd rather add to the boats PY to accomplish the same thing. I have to keep the RC duties as simple as possible because I don't want to do it all the time and we will be taking turns.

 

Nycer

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The good part of mcmw's method is that it keep the front runners in traffic. Its good for the mid fleeters and good for the front runners too. But as he says there is such a big gap in the elapsed time its not so easy to get "everyone" on a par as a personal PY would do.

I think Sailwave will present a series of results (line honors) as well as handicapped times and then it suggests a change to the handicap or delta so that all skippers would have finished equally. This number or a proportion of it could be applied to the personal PY each week. All you need to do is cut/paste update the personal PY list in sailwave at the end of the day so that next week the numbers are already in the lap top.

 

Kenny

Member
310
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Midwest USA
Bram said:
Since we are going to do PY races, I don't want to apply the handicap at the start. I'd rather add to the boats PY to accomplish the same thing. I have to keep the RC duties as simple as possible because I don't want to do it all the time and we will be taking turns.
Fugu,

You can simply establish a portsmouth number for the skipper instead of the boat. After you establish the number, you can apply it and it will show both who won and who won corrected. Does this make sense?

Bram

Can you please go into a little more detail in how you would go about establishing this portmouth number for the skippers? This sounds very interesting.......

The point that keeps coming back at me with the system I stated was that "if the top boats don't get to start with everyone, then their starts will suffer during regattas"

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
Bram said:
Since we are going to do PY races, I don't want to apply the handicap at the start. I'd rather add to the boats PY to accomplish the same thing. I have to keep the RC duties as simple as possible because I don't want to do it all the time and we will be taking turns.
Fugu,

You can simply establish a portsmouth number for the skipper instead of the boat. After you establish the number, you can apply it and it will show both who won and who won corrected. Does this make sense?

Bram

Can you please go into a little more detail in how you would go about establishing this portmouth number for the skippers? This sounds very interesting.......

The point that keeps coming back at me with the system I stated was that "if the top boats don't get to start with everyone, then their starts will suffer during regattas"
I have been thinking of taking the 30 second thing and doing some rough calculations for an average race to find out how much of an adjustment that would be to the PY. I'm thinking of it like where older boats are given a 1-10 point adjustment of the base. I might just make it a little arbitrary to start with and then I hope to fomalize it if the idea works well.

 

Kenny

Member
310
0
Midwest USA
Bram said:
Since we are going to do PY races, I don't want to apply the handicap at the start. I'd rather add to the boats PY to accomplish the same thing. I have to keep the RC duties as simple as possible because I don't want to do it all the time and we will be taking turns.
Fugu,

You can simply establish a portsmouth number for the skipper instead of the boat. After you establish the number, you can apply it and it will show both who won and who won corrected. Does this make sense?

Bram

Can you please go into a little more detail in how you would go about establishing this portmouth number for the skippers? This sounds very interesting.......

The point that keeps coming back at me with the system I stated was that "if the top boats don't get to start with everyone, then their starts will suffer during regattas"
I have been thinking of taking the 30 second thing and doing some rough calculations for an average race to find out how much of an adjustment that would be to the PY. I'm thinking of it like where older boats are given a 1-10 point adjustment of the base. I might just make it a little arbitrary to start with and then I hope to fomalize it if the idea works well.

I don't know what we're going to do, if anything. I'm the big pusher of it.....it just seemed like, after the 1st leg, that the races were between 3-4 boats....after the 3rd leg 1-2 boats... I'm just trying to get more boats racing around each other for longer periods of the race, or at least later in the race. I'm not the guy whining at the bottom, I'm the one who won the series.

I believe that if the guys at the bottom are in front for longer periods of time during the race then they will concentrate longer and harder during the race to stay in front, and if they are working harder then it will be tougher for the rest of us to catch them. I would like for there to be 3 or 4 boats within striking distance of each other at the end of a club race......just like there would be at a regatta.

I would like to hear what other clubs have done regarding this. We have done the gold fleet/ silver fleet thing and that got old pretty quick...lasted a couple of series and that's it.

 

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