Snowden; In hindsight it looks clear he is/was a whistle blower

[2slow]

I think the Obama administration would rather have a flat tax and repeal r v wade than say it, but Snowden uncovered massive abuses by the government and history will view him as the most important whistle blower of his generation and possibly of all time.

Mark do you still view him as a selfish traitor? Have the backpedaling, apologies and policy changes of the administration on revelations by Snowden changed your opinion?

 

[Bull Gator]

not a traitor. I wish him the best. I can't begin to imagine what the real extent of NSA spying is. I find it troubling.

My reasonable proposal would declassify 90% of all documents after 5 years.

 

[Mark K]

I view him as a naif. A computer programmer looking at that stuff is kind of like a pig looking at a wrist watch. He never should have been given access, and if that was unavoidable, he should have been closely supervised. I'm believe he thinks he saw something strange and was spooked by it.

What appears to most people as abuses was SOP. It's necessary to understand how those SOP's came into being and exactly how they were being handled in order to judge them.

 

[billy backstay]

Jon Stewart did a great bit the other night about how Congress had fully authorized the NSA to perform all the tasks of spying that they are now all screaming their heads off about, including spying on our Eurpean allies.

 

[Olsonist]

System administrator, not a computer programmer. Bait cutter, not a fisherman.

 

[Mark K]

Jon Stewart did a great bit the other night about how Congress had fully authorized the NSA to perform all the tasks of spying that they are now all screaming their heads off about, including spying on our Eurpean allies.

Did he mention the stuff about every intell insider we have swearing they spy on us too? They do, and will continue to do so. The rank, phony hypocrisy of this outrage the French and German leadership are displaying will be revealed.

The SIGINT games will continue too. Nobody is going to abandon this field and blind themselves. That there will be more people aware of it is a good thing, but I don't think Snowden would have knowingly traded his freedom for this.

 

[another 505 sailor]

A few years ago I did race committee with a guy in his early twenties, who was recently laid off. He was cruising through the company's server and found an employee compensation spreadsheet. He didn't think it was fair that some people earned more than others, so he emailed it to everyone. He did not understand why he was fired.

Some people just cannot be trusted with sensitive information. Too bad Snowden wasn't vetted better.

 

[Mark K]

He blew a whistle, but it's a damn tricky game to ref. Imagine Joey Crawford's first game....

 

[mikewof]

I view him as a naif. A computer programmer looking at that stuff is kind of like a pig looking at a wrist watch. He never should have been given access, and if that was unavoidable, he should have been closely supervised. I'm believe he thinks he saw something strange and was spooked by it.

What appears to most people as abuses was SOP. It's necessary to understand how those SOP's came into being and exactly how they were being handled in order to judge them.

"Intelligence gathering" (i.e. spying and subterfuge) should be conducted in such a way that your average naif should have a reasonable understanding of why it's necessary. Gathering intel on North Korea? Check. Deposing a democratically-elected leader of a free country? Urp.

If the wristwatch can't be understood by a pig then it shouldn't be built in the first place.

 

[Mark K]

I view him as a naif. A computer programmer looking at that stuff is kind of like a pig looking at a wrist watch. He never should have been given access, and if that was unavoidable, he should have been closely supervised. I'm believe he thinks he saw something strange and was spooked by it.

What appears to most people as abuses was SOP. It's necessary to understand how those SOP's came into being and exactly how they were being handled in order to judge them.

"Intelligence gathering" (i.e. spying and subterfuge) should be conducted in such a way that your average naif should have a reasonable understanding of why it's necessary. Gathering intel on North Korea? Check. Deposing a democratically-elected leader of a free country? Urp.

If the wristwatch can't be understood by a pig then it shouldn't be built in the first place.

"If the wristwatch can't be understood by a pig then it shouldn't be built in the first place." An example of the pervasive adolescent self-importance that causes them to believe they must treat us like children. Can't even understand why it's necessary and normal between different nations. "We want total transparency in our international espionage and SIGINT because I don't understand it!!"

Collectively, we have the mind of a five year old child and he was glad to be rid of it.

 

[Mark K]

Jon Stewart did a great bit the other night about how Congress had fully authorized the NSA to perform all the tasks of spying that they are now all screaming their heads off about, including spying on our Eurpean allies.

Did he mention the stuff about every intell insider we have swearing they spy on us too? They do, and will continue to do so. The rank, phony hypocrisy of this outrage the French and German leadership are displaying will be revealed.

The SIGINT games will continue too. Nobody is going to abandon this field and blind themselves. That there will be more people aware of it is a good thing, but I don't think Snowden would have knowingly traded his freedom for this.

I don't have any issue with us spying on Merkel's cell phone calls. We do it, they do it. Nothing shocking.

What I have a serious issue with is the NSA sucking up and monitoring ALL of the emails, phone calls, etc. of US citizens. Whether or not they are actually reading every email is irrelevant. Doing this has a chilling effect on speech and privacy.

We all are now joking (sort of) about what we now write on the forums and what we send our friends and families in emails. But its an uneasy joke, because we know its actually true. And its chilling. There is a psychological, if not tangible, effect on our actions, our speech, how we conduct our daily life. It is not Big Brother yet..... but we are headed that way and frankly I am not comfortable with it.

I'm still contorted when it comes to Snowden himself...... On one hand, he violated his oath and his security clearance. If he wanted to be a true whistleblower - he should have stood and faced the consequences. It would have turned out poorly for him - of that I have no doubt. BUt it would have been the right thing to do if he felt that strongly about it. Running off to China and then Russia to me seemed cowardly.

OTOH, we would not be having this conversation without him. An for that, I am grateful and this conversation needed to happen at some point. The public doesn't need to know everything that goes on.... but I think we have taken this security state thing a bit too far. I, for one, have no desire to live in a police state as my home country.... even a benign one. I live in one currently, and it is truly benign in the sense that it is not apparent on the surface in everyday life. But anyone who doesn't think that emails and texts and phone calls are being ACTIVELY monitored and read over here are fools. I accept it because I'm a guest in another country...... But I DO NOT accept that in my own country. We are better than this. We do not need to hide from our own shadows. Yes, there are threats to our country out there - but I think we can still deal with them while not becoming a police state in the process

It would be one thing if Greenwald was just distributing things about domestic spying, but this international stuff crosses the line.

I don't think Snowden has any control of that anymore though. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out Greenwald has to release stuff just to keep Snowdens situation in Russia comfortable. They will want it all.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I'm still contorted when it comes to Snowden himself...... On one hand, he violated his oath and his security clearance. If he wanted to be a true whistleblower - he should have stood and faced the consequences. It would have turned out poorly for him - of that I have no doubt. BUt it would have been the right thing to do if he felt that strongly about it. Running off to China and then Russia to me seemed cowardly.

Stood where? And who would have heard his whistle?

Have you noticed how our government treats whistleblowers? The Fast and Furious whistleblowers tried to stop that insane program through internal channels and were shut down, so they went to reporters. Reporting on what they said was not a crime. Reporting on what Snowden said would be.

So he needed to find a reporter who wanted to commit the same crime, knowing that "it would turn out poorly."

The only way he could do what he did was to stay beyond the reach of our government. That's why lots of people wanted him to find some other way. There was no other way, so that position defaults to "continue trusting the security state."

 

[akeeley4834]

I've ask this question before, and I will ask it again. Can anyone name one U.S. citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs? Just one will do. Criminals and terrorists do not apply. And I consider Snowden an indicted criminal. How about a European citizen? Can anyone name one European citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

OK, I'll name one: me.

I've sent emails.

They intercepted them without a warrant.

But there are millions like me, so let's not make it all about me.

As for Europeans, the NSA is supposed to spy on foreigners. No warrant required.

 

[Jim M]

I've ask this question before, and I will ask it again. Can anyone name one U.S. citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs? Just one will do. Criminals and terrorists do not apply. And I consider Snowden an indicted criminal. How about a European citizen? Can anyone name one European citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs.

How would we know lacking any investigation at all? and why wouldn't criminals and terrorists apply? We have certain unalienable rights guaranteed by the Constitution those rules are applicable to everyone, innocent until found guilty in a court of law.

 

[Jim M]

Just this morning as reported in the Guardian:

(Reuters) - Spy agencies across Western Europe are working together on mass surveillance of Internet and phone traffic comparable to programs run by their U.S. counterpart denounced by European governments, Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Saturday. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/02/us-europe-surveillance-idUSBRE9A103K20131102

Wow, just a week ago they were screaming bloody murder over the NSA spying amongst them. Today, it's revealed they are all over their own Continent.

 

[jocal505]

I don't have any issue with us spying on Merkel's cell phone calls. We do it, they do it. Nothing shocking.

What I have a serious issue with is the NSA sucking up and monitoring ALL of the emails, phone calls, etc. of US citizens. Whether or not they are actually reading every email is irrelevant. Doing this has a chilling effect on speech and privacy.

We all are now joking (sort of) about what we now write on the forums and what we send our friends and families in emails. But its an uneasy joke, because we know its actually true. And its chilling. There is a psychological, if not tangible, effect on our actions, our speech, how we conduct our daily life. It is not Big Brother yet..... but we are headed that way and frankly I am not comfortable with it.

I'm still contorted when it comes to Snowden himself...... On one hand, he violated his oath and his security clearance. If he wanted to be a true whistleblower - he should have stood and faced the consequences. It would have turned out poorly for him - of that I have no doubt. BUt it would have been the right thing to do if he felt that strongly about it. Running off to China and then Russia to me seemed cowardly.

OTOH, we would not be having this conversation without him. An for that, I am grateful and this conversation needed to happen at some point. The public doesn't need to know everything that goes on.... but I think we have taken this security state thing a bit too far. I, for one, have no desire to live in a police state as my home country.... even a benign one. I live in one currently, and it is truly benign in the sense that it is not apparent on the surface in everyday life. But anyone who doesn't think that emails and texts and phone calls are being ACTIVELY monitored and read over here are fools. I accept it because I'm a guest in another country...... But I DO NOT accept that in my own country. We are better than this. We do not need to hide from our own shadows. Yes, there are threats to our country out there - but I think we can still deal with them while not becoming a police state in the process

This post is beautifully written, and speaks for me.

 

[Not My Real Name]

I've ask this question before, and I will ask it again. Can anyone name one U.S. citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs? Just one will do. Criminals and terrorists do not apply. And I consider Snowden an indicted criminal. How about a European citizen? Can anyone name one European citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs.

If you've committed no crime you have nothing to fear, right?

Many people's 4th amendment rights have been abrogated - does that count for harm? Is it harm if the government breaks into your house and searches it just for the hell of it to see if you are doing anything wrong?

I tend to think so, I do not wish to live in a police state.

 

[Mark K]

I've ask this question before, and I will ask it again. Can anyone name one U.S. citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs? Just one will do. Criminals and terrorists do not apply. And I consider Snowden an indicted criminal. How about a European citizen? Can anyone name one European citizen that was harmed by the NSA programs.

If you've committed no crime you have nothing to fear, right?

Many people's 4th amendment rights have been abrogated - does that count for harm? Is it harm if the government breaks into your house and searches it just for the hell of it to see if you are doing anything wrong?

I tend to think so, I do not wish to live in a police state.

If they had been doing that Snowden wouldn't have had to flee. He exposed the capability, but it appears all the collection that was going on was legal. The restrictions on ability to view the saved data imposed by FISA were being followed. Snowden provided no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.

Since no other nation has such restrictions, or anything like a FISA court, are they all "police states"? I don't think so.