Snowden; In hindsight it looks clear he is/was a whistle blower

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Anyone else here (besides Tom) have a big problem with Obama's speech? I did not like how BHO said we would no longer listen in on allied leaders (something constitutional) but would continue monitoring Americans internet, phone etc (unconstitutional use of govt. power). Thanks Obama!

Different topic but;

Was congress correct in not having Clapper prosecuted for perjury?

I believe he feels the current use of it is legal, as we currently interpret the law, post-Patriot Act anyway.

I don't think he should face trial for perjury myself. He was dealing with conflicting oaths. However, since he is now useless to explain the IC's positions and actions to the public he should be replaced, at minimum. At his age he would do well by retiring.

I've worked for Admiral Clapper for 10 years. He knows the IC inside and out, and has been a very effective leader. He hates the political side of his job, and his policies have been very effective in supporting the operations/production side of the house.

That said - new ideas can be a good thing, and the positive things he's established will stand on their own merit.

 

[2slow]

I find the Clapper thing problematic. I understand why he did it, and I also think he should probably get off if prosecuted, but I don't see how the congress cannot do something. Is it ok to lie to congress under oath even if you have a good reason? Of course not. That is a line that cannot be blurry for effective government

 

[slatfatf]

Anyone else here (besides Tom) have a big problem with Obama's speech? I did not like how BHO said we would no longer listen in on allied leaders (something constitutional) but would continue monitoring Americans internet, phone etc (unconstitutional use of govt. power). Thanks Obama!

Different topic but;

Was congress correct in not having Clapper prosecuted for perjury?

I was hugely dissappointed. Wholesale spying on Americans is wrong. For me there is no grey area, and it does not matter if it saves lives.

 

[Mark K]

Anyone else here (besides Tom) have a big problem with Obama's speech? I did not like how BHO said we would no longer listen in on allied leaders (something constitutional) but would continue monitoring Americans internet, phone etc (unconstitutional use of govt. power). Thanks Obama!

Different topic but;

Was congress correct in not having Clapper prosecuted for perjury?

I believe he feels the current use of it is legal, as we currently interpret the law, post-Patriot Act anyway.

I don't think he should face trial for perjury myself. He was dealing with conflicting oaths. However, since he is now useless to explain the IC's positions and actions to the public he should be replaced, at minimum. At his age he would do well by retiring.

I've worked for Admiral Clapper for 10 years. He knows the IC inside and out, and has been a very effective leader. He hates the political side of his job, and his policies have been very effective in supporting the operations/production side of the house.

That said - new ideas can be a good thing, and the positive things he's established will stand on their own merit.

The story I've heard is that he made one big mistake, dismantling the DIA's HUMIT program. This is primarily a judgement made with the benefit of hindsight, as there is certainly logic to limiting the DIA to weapons and foreign military movements and leaving all that goofy, icky, hard-to-quantify spook stuff to the CIA. How was he supposed to know we would be doing "nation building/COIN" again, and that right soon?? How was he supposed to know somebody would be corrupting the entire spook-system to stove-pipe phony intell into the Oval Orifice?? How do we know the DIA could or would have checked that?? Strikes me as pretty harsh to damn him for that.

What do you think?

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

Anyone else here (besides Tom) have a big problem with Obama's speech? I did not like how BHO said we would no longer listen in on allied leaders (something constitutional) but would continue monitoring Americans internet, phone etc (unconstitutional use of govt. power). Thanks Obama!

Different topic but;

Was congress correct in not having Clapper prosecuted for perjury?

I believe he feels the current use of it is legal, as we currently interpret the law, post-Patriot Act anyway.

I don't think he should face trial for perjury myself. He was dealing with conflicting oaths. However, since he is now useless to explain the IC's positions and actions to the public he should be replaced, at minimum. At his age he would do well by retiring.

I've worked for Admiral Clapper for 10 years. He knows the IC inside and out, and has been a very effective leader. He hates the political side of his job, and his policies have been very effective in supporting the operations/production side of the house.

That said - new ideas can be a good thing, and the positive things he's established will stand on their own merit.

The story I've heard is that he made one big mistake, dismantling the DIA's HUMIT program. This is primarily a judgement made with the benefit of hindsight, as there is certainly logic to limiting the DIA to weapons and foreign military movements and leaving all that goofy, icky, hard-to-quantify spook stuff to the CIA. How was he supposed to know we would be doing "nation building/COIN" again, and that right soon?? How was he supposed to know somebody would be corrupting the entire spook-system to stove-pipe phony intell into the Oval Orifice?? How do we know the DIA could or would have checked that?? Strikes me as pretty harsh to damn him for that.

What do you think?

I think that he looked at his resources, and as he saw with many other programs, took actions to eliminate overlap in functions and streamline operations to achieve greater efficiency. There's a lot of overlap/that's MY rice bowl maneuvering in the intra-agency competition for budgets, and I think that while gutting DIA's humint capabilities indeed proved wrong, that he went in to it with honest intentions.

What can I say, Mark - I like the guy, even if he did step on himself. Lying to Congress? No pass on that for anyone, as far as I'm concerned. He oughta go, and now.

 

[Mark K]

Anyone else here (besides Tom) have a big problem with Obama's speech? I did not like how BHO said we would no longer listen in on allied leaders (something constitutional) but would continue monitoring Americans internet, phone etc (unconstitutional use of govt. power). Thanks Obama!

Different topic but;

Was congress correct in not having Clapper prosecuted for perjury?

I believe he feels the current use of it is legal, as we currently interpret the law, post-Patriot Act anyway.

I don't think he should face trial for perjury myself. He was dealing with conflicting oaths. However, since he is now useless to explain the IC's positions and actions to the public he should be replaced, at minimum. At his age he would do well by retiring.

I've worked for Admiral Clapper for 10 years. He knows the IC inside and out, and has been a very effective leader. He hates the political side of his job, and his policies have been very effective in supporting the operations/production side of the house.

That said - new ideas can be a good thing, and the positive things he's established will stand on their own merit.

The story I've heard is that he made one big mistake, dismantling the DIA's HUMIT program. This is primarily a judgement made with the benefit of hindsight, as there is certainly logic to limiting the DIA to weapons and foreign military movements and leaving all that goofy, icky, hard-to-quantify spook stuff to the CIA. How was he supposed to know we would be doing "nation building/COIN" again, and that right soon?? How was he supposed to know somebody would be corrupting the entire spook-system to stove-pipe phony intell into the Oval Orifice?? How do we know the DIA could or would have checked that?? Strikes me as pretty harsh to damn him for that.

What do you think?

I think that he looked at his resources, and as he saw with many other programs, took actions to eliminate overlap in functions and streamline operations to achieve greater efficiency. There's a lot of overlap/that's MY rice bowl maneuvering in the intra-agency competition for budgets, and I think that while gutting DIA's humint capabilities indeed proved wrong, that he went in to it with honest intentions.

What can I say, Mark - I like the guy, even if he did step on himself. Lying to Congress? No pass on that for anyone, as far as I'm concerned. He oughta go, and now.

Well, he can't be doing the splainin' anymore, but the good news for him is he may not have to. The House and Senate leaders aren't showing much interest in getting his hide on a wall, and if Darrell Issa does think we would have seen it by now. If anybody wishes to have hearings there are a lot of people they can invite besides him. Seems unlikely Obama would be in a hurry to select and get confirmed another DNI while this Snowden stuff is still fresh and steaming.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I was trying to tweak JBSF and A Guy on the "reckless release" thing, Mark, not you.

You're not gonna tweak me, Tom. I like you, we just have an honest difference of opinion on this matter. I think that your perspective is a bit myopic and insulated, and that's OK, I do understand why you feel the way you do.

Snowden's illegal disclosure is the epitome (look it up) of recklessness, as he had no way of knowing what the ramifications of his behavior would be, and decided to undertake that behavior anyway.

You can suggest all you want that because you got something YOU wanted from Snowden's actions, that they were justified. You, and the majority of the US populace, aren't well enough informed to even begin to understand the damage that's been done to our foreign collections capabilities. Remember that as you submit Snowden's canonization.

I don't know that I support everything he has done and I do respect your opinion on this, but leaving aside whether he was right or wrong, we're arguing over spilled milk. That doesn't clean it up.

Develop new sources and methods. Try to avoid collecting data on US citizens "just in case" it's needed. When it comes to furriners, pretty much anything is fair game. I understand that's a fuzzy line. Consider how crossing it might look to the uninformed masses, or to potential whistleblowers.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

I was trying to tweak JBSF and A Guy on the "reckless release" thing, Mark, not you.

You're not gonna tweak me, Tom. I like you, we just have an honest difference of opinion on this matter. I think that your perspective is a bit myopic and insulated, and that's OK, I do understand why you feel the way you do.

Snowden's illegal disclosure is the epitome (look it up) of recklessness, as he had no way of knowing what the ramifications of his behavior would be, and decided to undertake that behavior anyway.

You can suggest all you want that because you got something YOU wanted from Snowden's actions, that they were justified. You, and the majority of the US populace, aren't well enough informed to even begin to understand the damage that's been done to our foreign collections capabilities. Remember that as you submit Snowden's canonization.

I don't know that I support everything he has done and I do respect your opinion on this, but leaving aside whether he was right or wrong, we're arguing over spilled milk. That doesn't clean it up.

Develop new sources and methods. Try to avoid collecting data on US citizens "just in case" it's needed. When it comes to furriners, pretty much anything is fair game. I understand that's a fuzzy line. Consider how crossing it might look to the uninformed masses, or to potential whistleblowers.

On this, we agree - and it's Snowden's disclosure of our foreign methods and objectives that's really got me bugged. I agree completely on domestic collections, shoot, I had to get formal legal permission to be able to use unclassified domestic imagery purchased from a commercial provider as test/validation data in one of the systems we built. The degree of scrutiny that I had to satisfy w/r/t the safekeeping and intended use of that stuff was very surprising, but, comforting as well.

 

[tuk tuk Joe]

Industrial espionage? It’s all Snowden's fault.. :lol:

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

On this, we agree - and it's Snowden's disclosure of our foreign methods and objectives that's really got me bugged.

And its his disclosure of sources and methods (the holy of holies) that makes him a traitor and not a whistleblower. I think he could have accomplished the same thing - i.e. America having a discussion about domestic surveillance without disclosing all he has so far (with more coming out all the time) on our foreign collection efforts.

I'm still interested in which sources and/or methods were exposed. If I knew, I might disagree with them also, but no one has really pointed to any at all, much less one with which I disagree.

You don't get to pick your whistleblowers, nor what they reveal. Illegally collecting all that data without telling the FISA court was just asking for a whistleblower to emerge.

Careful what you ask for, you might get it.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I was trying to tweak JBSF and A Guy on the "reckless release" thing, Mark, not you.

You're not gonna tweak me, Tom. I like you, we just have an honest difference of opinion on this matter. I think that your perspective is a bit myopic and insulated, and that's OK, I do understand why you feel the way you do.

Snowden's illegal disclosure is the epitome (look it up) of recklessness, as he had no way of knowing what the ramifications of his behavior would be, and decided to undertake that behavior anyway.

You can suggest all you want that because you got something YOU wanted from Snowden's actions, that they were justified. You, and the majority of the US populace, aren't well enough informed to even begin to understand the damage that's been done to our foreign collections capabilities. Remember that as you submit Snowden's canonization.

I don't know that I support everything he has done and I do respect your opinion on this, but leaving aside whether he was right or wrong, we're arguing over spilled milk. That doesn't clean it up.

Develop new sources and methods. Try to avoid collecting data on US citizens "just in case" it's needed. When it comes to furriners, pretty much anything is fair game. I understand that's a fuzzy line. Consider how crossing it might look to the uninformed masses, or to potential whistleblowers.

On this, we agree - and it's Snowden's disclosure of our foreign methods and objectives that's really got me bugged. I agree completely on domestic collections, shoot, I had to get formal legal permission to be able to use unclassified domestic imagery purchased from a commercial provider as test/validation data in one of the systems we built. The degree of scrutiny that I had to satisfy w/r/t the safekeeping and intended use of that stuff was very surprising, but, comforting as well.

That is a bit surprising, but if you had to actually purchase images the purchase should have a reason.

I just checked and Google maps has a very sharp image of my place from 2011. Yahoo's image is from 2010 and is a bit fuzzier.

I figure if that stuff is on the web, anyone is free to look at it.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

I was trying to tweak JBSF and A Guy on the "reckless release" thing, Mark, not you.

You're not gonna tweak me, Tom. I like you, we just have an honest difference of opinion on this matter. I think that your perspective is a bit myopic and insulated, and that's OK, I do understand why you feel the way you do.

Snowden's illegal disclosure is the epitome (look it up) of recklessness, as he had no way of knowing what the ramifications of his behavior would be, and decided to undertake that behavior anyway.

You can suggest all you want that because you got something YOU wanted from Snowden's actions, that they were justified. You, and the majority of the US populace, aren't well enough informed to even begin to understand the damage that's been done to our foreign collections capabilities. Remember that as you submit Snowden's canonization.

I don't know that I support everything he has done and I do respect your opinion on this, but leaving aside whether he was right or wrong, we're arguing over spilled milk. That doesn't clean it up.

Develop new sources and methods. Try to avoid collecting data on US citizens "just in case" it's needed. When it comes to furriners, pretty much anything is fair game. I understand that's a fuzzy line. Consider how crossing it might look to the uninformed masses, or to potential whistleblowers.

On this, we agree - and it's Snowden's disclosure of our foreign methods and objectives that's really got me bugged. I agree completely on domestic collections, shoot, I had to get formal legal permission to be able to use unclassified domestic imagery purchased from a commercial provider as test/validation data in one of the systems we built. The degree of scrutiny that I had to satisfy w/r/t the safekeeping and intended use of that stuff was very surprising, but, comforting as well.

That is a bit surprising, but if you had to actually purchase images the purchase should have a reason.

I just checked and Google maps has a very sharp image of my place from 2011. Yahoo's image is from 2010 and is a bit fuzzier.

I figure if that stuff is on the web, anyone is free to look at it.

The place I work for uses commercially procured imagery for certain functions, and as such, we had requirements to be able to work with those sources as well. Believe it or not, government collection over the US is very tightly controlled. Commercial entities have much more leeway, and the commercial sensors have come a long way in the last few years.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

The current Google image looks about like the view from an airplane flying at 500 feet.

I'm surprised government collection is limited. When I first moved out here, we didn't have these cool images on the internet and I bought images from the National Aerial Photography Program. I scanned copies and used them to help me learn all the uncharted little creek branches. Since then, I always figured that whatever images I can get, the government can get better ones.

That kind of surveillance doesn't bother me. Planes fly over. I figure I have limited expectation of privacy in my yard. Also, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for various government regulatory and law enforcement agencies to want aerial or satellite images.

 

[A guy in the Chesapeake]

The current Google image looks about like the view from an airplane flying at 500 feet.

I'm surprised government collection is limited. When I first moved out here, we didn't have these cool images on the internet and I bought images from the National Aerial Photography Program. I scanned copies and used them to help me learn all the uncharted little creek branches. Since then, I always figured that whatever images I can get, the government can get better ones.

That kind of surveillance doesn't bother me. Planes fly over. I figure I have limited expectation of privacy in my yard. Also, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for various government regulatory and law enforcement agencies to want aerial or satellite images.

You're right, there are, but, that nagging little provision that USED to prevent the US Government from spying on its citizens made everyone who did/used something like that tread very carefully to not run afoul of that law. Now? We still exercise intense diligence w/r/t proper use/safeguarding of domestic stuff. While we still toe the line, I suspect that there are some in the community that are "more equal" and that they don't.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Guardian Destroys Hard Drives

What a strange world.

This accomplished nothing, yet was necessary. It's more security theater.

 

[tuk tuk Joe]

Congratulations to Snowden…

NSA Leaker Edward Snowden Nominated for Nobel Peace Prizehttp://www.voanews.com/content/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-nominated-for-nobel-peace-prize/1840573.html

 

[Remodel]

Congratulations to Snowden…

NSA Leaker Edward Snowden Nominated for Nobel Peace Prizehttp://www.voanews.com/content/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-nominated-for-nobel-peace-prize/1840573.html

I don't care, some of his revelations may have been for the good of the country, but not all. He is still a traitor.

 

[tuk tuk Joe]

Congratulations to Snowden…

NSA Leaker Edward Snowden Nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

http://www.voanews.com/content/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-nominated-for-nobel-peace-prize/1840573.html

I don't care, some of his revelations may have been for the good of the country, but not all. He is still a traitor.

Truth is treason...

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Congratulations to Snowden…

NSA Leaker Edward Snowden Nominated for Nobel Peace Prizehttp://www.voanews.com/content/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-nominated-for-nobel-peace-prize/1840573.html

I don't care, some of his revelations may have been for the good of the country, but not all. He is still a traitor.

How about the people he told on? You know, the ones who failed to tell the oversight judges what they were doing, and when they did admit what they were doing, the judge said that what they were doing was unconstitutional?

I think people who go around the oversight system we have set up to defy the constitution are traitors. This gives me a bit of a soft spot for the people who reveal those crimes.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I asked Remodel two questions, Jeff.

You want to take a shot at them?