Snowflakes and sailing

[SteveC]

69.2 

(g) The standard of proof to be applied is the test of the comfortable satisfaction of the protest committee, bearing in mind the seriousness of the alleged misconduct. However, if the standard of proof in this rule conflicts with the laws of a country, the national authority may, with the approval of World Sailing, change it with a prescription to this rule.

 

[dreadom]

This is the best example of the real problem.  Competitors who do not know the rules.

Stop being a dick Random. Your aggressive comments are no better than barging. I believe Glen was merely sharing his suggestion of how a rule 69 protest should be conducted- not his interpretation of the rules. He can correct me if I am wrong. 

Dude, the opposite of talking is listening not waiting. You wouldn’t be ridiculed so much if you just took a breath and tried to appreciate where other parties are coming from. I’m not saying agree but far too often you attack the player and not the ball. 

 

[Livia]

Rule 69 as it now stands has just become a tool to use for persecution of people for what ever reason someone usually a official or club hierarchy does not like.

In other words a purpose for which it was not designed.

 

[axolotl]

From that documnent:

Examples of occasions when action under rule 69 would be appropriate, should the protest committee become aware of evidence, are presented in Case 138. Some include:

• lying at a hearing

• knowingly infringing a rule with intent to gain an unfair advantage

• threatening behavior, or physical contact

• falsifying measurement documents

• failure to comply with a reasonable request of a race official

• deliberately damaging another boat

• abuse of officials

• theft

• offensive drunken behavior

• fighting

An accurate list for Rule 69 infractions.  Note that being a loudmouth asshole yeller on the racecourse  is not included.  If it were, 1/3 of the fleets I'm now in would have several rule 69 protests every race.  Some people have coprolalia and can't help themselves.

There seems to be some misconceptions concerning Rule 69.  It's a catchall for those skippers who have not broken a RRS but still deserve  censure.  It is not to be triggered in the situation where the offender has broken a RRS rule; that is to be handled by the protest procedure, flag 'em and if they don't do their turns devote some time in the protest room and help clean up the sport.  If *everybody*  *always* threw the flag at flagrant bargers,  fools who won't come up, many other RRS violations,  sailboat racing would benefit.

This seems to be a bottom of the sport problem.  Long ago I was in the mini-Gran Prix circuit, various keelboat Nationals, OD North Americans;  and there was almost no yelling (except required hails like "Room for an obstruction, "you tack", etc.)  and a few calls of "no overlap",  "mast abeam" (which dates me),  "Come up now, 1, 3, 4, 5 .  .  ." etc.  And of course an instant hail of "protest" and pop the flag if fouled. Those guys know the rules. Other than that,  it was a cotillion out on the water.

 

[rmdanko]

there is a reason the line is "swear like a sailor"

the world is a tough place the sooner people acquire coping skills, the better off they will be

if you don't like what someone is saying, just don't listen

 

[evenflow]

Overly PC. Add gross back. 

 

[OutofOffice]

All depends on the event, the situation, etc...

my general thoughts are we’re all grownups (in the legal sense anyways) and if you get your panties in a wad over another boat yelling a few profanities at you cause you aren’t paying attention or are making a situation worse because you’re too damn hardheaded to pick your battles. Get the hell off the water and list your boat for sale. Racing ain’t for you.

No one wants to be constantly cursed at (ask any weeknight crew member and the crew less boats they left) but get some perspective.

 

[Glenn McCarthy]

Dreadom nailed it, when I wrote " "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."  I meant that the current RRS69 is so far stringent, so utterly politically correct, so designed for the professional rockstars and Olympians, that it is completely unneeded and unwarranted for the weekend warrior.  Let's simplify it and change it to "A RRS69 penalty shall apply ONLY after a guilty finding in a court of law."

 

[sshow bob]

What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan

I have never lodged a complaint pursuant to Rule 69, but I am not clear on how being intolerant to jerks speaks to a person's seamanship.

 

[Meat Wad]

What a fucking joke the scot wold give this any press at all. Other than he still feels jilted by the mainstream sailing media.

OOPS, My bad

 

[No Way]

As usual the rule/lawmakers are catering to the lowest common denominator. The morons then use the situation to run roughshod over those who know and understand the rules and wanna play to the fairness and intent. Write good rules(not ones open to a lawyers interpretation), know them and enforce them

 

[bigrpowr]

 When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?   

 it's called tape delay ya big dummy . what rock do you live under ? gold, baseball , football , it all still gets heard on tv at some point, and often.

 

[VWAP]

Which one of these is gross misconduct?

 

[OutofOffice]

Which one of these is gross misconduct?

You bastard. These are going to be some f’ed up dreams tonight...

 

[equivocator]

Keep in mind that certain kinds of conduct are tolerated in different places. A famous law case, studied by every first year law student, talks about "the license of the playground," meaning that different rules apply on the playground than in a classroom or in a courtroom. The same usually applies at the yacht club, where rowdier conduct is allowed on the docks than in the dining room, or when children are present. On the other hand, lots of people in southern California will recall a donnybrook involving 10-20 sailors at the trophy presentation at Long Beach Race Week a number of years ago, after crews of several boats got into it, starting with offensive language, and ending with a fight and several competitors arrested by the LB Police Dept. 

Different sailing classes also have different 'cultures,' and conduct that is tolerated in one class, might be punished in another. 

However, no matter how you slice it, an "Organizing Authority" that puts on an event should probably not be allowed to exclude an otherwise-eligible competitor from competing in its events without a formal hearing. On the other hand, how does Ed think clubs should try to control misconduct by intoxicated sailors? St. Francis has employees who give out cards asking sailors to remove their hats in the clubhouse, but I'd bet they'd kick you out if you grope the commodore's wife or his teenage daughter, and the boat you are on might get kicked out if it happens during a regatta.

 

[Glenn McCarthy]

Right, simplifying is sending it to courts in you world?

Read RRS Rule 3.  The entire system is designed to keep lawyers out of it, something totally lost on you.

What's lost on you is, that our society already has a set of behavior standards. Assault is assault, vandalism is vandalism.  That stuff belongs exactly in the hands of the lawmen (and lawwomen).  The slap on the back of the hand that some sailing judges give, is no where near the punishment deserved by the arm of the law.

And I completely agree that the RRS right of way does belong outside of the court system.  But this new RRS69 is a great example how far off the charts this rule needs to be.  It needs to be reined in.

 

[bplipschitz]

"What will happen to these poor easily offended people on a north Atlantic offshore with a 30ft following sea in 30kts with a kite up and the shyt hits the fan?"

Profoundly unlikely the folks you describe would ever be in that location in those conditions

More importantly, WTF does the former have to do with rule 69?

 

[MR.CLEAN]

When was the last time you heard pro golfers, F-1 drivers, tennis players, top sports people in any field use foul language unless they lose self control?   

                                                                                                                           

paid, professional sportspeople are related in precisely what way to volunteer weekend warrior hobbyists?

 

[Mozzy Sails]

What's lost on you is, that our society already has a set of behavior standards. Assault is assault, vandalism is vandalism.  That stuff belongs exactly in the hands of the lawmen (and lawwomen).  The slap on the back of the hand that some sailing judges give, is no where near the punishment deserved by the arm of the law.

And I completely agree that the RRS right of way does belong outside of the court system.  But this new RRS69 is a great example how far off the charts this rule needs to be.  It needs to be reined in.

Yes, but I think we can hold ourselves to  higher set of standards in sport. 

Would you want your partner,  child,  mother or grandparents being sworn at whilst racing? Maybe they should just get over it and stop being 'snowflakes', but really what is to gain by making the sport a hostile and unwelcoming environment?  I think I'd trust a protest committee to tell the difference of context too. 

Then you have the instances of deliberate an pre-meditated cheating (falsifying measurement certs, lying at hearings). Again, not a criminal offence, but I think there should be rule to deal with this. 

 

[JohnMB]

paid, professional sportspeople are related in precisely what way to volunteer weekend warrior hobbyists?

There are plenty of examples of sports, especially amateur sprout where foul language is not tolerated at all.

If the Henley stewards hear you drop an F-bomb you will not be in the next race, and I've never considered rowers to be snowflakes. And a significant proportion of the crews at Henley are weekend warriors.

Whether the sport allows foul language or not is a choice, and I believe having a PC decide where and when it is inappropriate is not the worst option out there. Personally I'm ok with most cursing on the course, but I have seen drunk adults on the course swearing and intimidating boats with junior crew, where it was clearly not appropriate. There should be some recourse for this.