Snowflakes and sailing

Mozzy Sails

Super Anarchist
1,255
1,128
United Kingdom
I don't think it's foul language per-see. It's being abusive toward someone. 

You can shout at someone so they know they are about to break a rule, you can instruct them to take a action that will be mutually beneficial. There's nothing wrong with being assertive, but there's no need to personally attack someone.  Once you get to the point where you're just hurling insults at them to intimidate them into different behaviour, then whether you're in the wrong or right, that's just bullying. 

If that abuse isn't punished by the rules, then the sport quickly just becomes about who can bully others out the way best.  I always though sailing was good because it was about boat handling, tactical positioning, shifts, tides and sail trim.  I don't think it should be about intimidating people until they do what you want. 

Calling people snowflakes because they don't want to spend their free time being call a cunt may sound macho, but in reality I think it's indicative of where people run out of actual sailing skill and need to bring the game back down to their own level. 

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
46,682
4,725
Not here
Er, no it's not. There are things we have to tolerate in day to day life but does going to your sailing club have to be another hard up life lesson in how to 'take care of oneself'? There's no reason to make a weekend hobby about enduring abusive language.  There are plenty of ways to vocalise your displeasure at a competitor without being abusive. However, maybe you'd be a better racer yourself if you didn't feel the need to swear at people and focused on your own race.

Preparing your family for a 'sailing' competition shouldn't require them to take abuse. It a hobby, something you do for fun. Stop kidding yourself you're in some sort of high stakes death match that requires the uttermost unrelenting aggressive tone.

 And how exactly do your family take care of themselves? By meekly sitting there accepting abuse? By shouting back so all the sport becomes is the CLEAN family in a shouting match with the Jones? Sounds like a great way to spend the weekend. Or do you teach them to go physically attack the other sailors who shout at them?  

I notice you don't swear in your commentary? Why is that? When you see someone do something stupid you don't call them out as a fuckwit when you interview them? 
There's a whole lot of 'enduring abuse' that you seem to think is going on here, but this discussion really isn't about 'abuse' - it's about regular language in regular life that a few old people and fearful grandparents want to prevent.

I really, really don't understand how hearing curse words is 'enduring abuse'.  

An sailor who is ABUSING others - especially kids - should be penalized, and I don't really see anyone disputing that. 

But if the word "FUCK" is categorized as 'abuse' to you, I think you need to go to your fainting couch and take a break.  

Do not try to use 1950 standards to patrol a 2020 world.

Other answers: (1) I don't swear in my commentary because I am paid not to swear in my commentary.  Pro tennis players don't swear (loudly) because they do not want to lose sponsors or have soundbites go viral on social media.  (2) My wife is like me - she takes zero shit from people.  You talk shit, she comes back at you harder.  If I wanted a girl who liked to turn the other cheek, I'd have found some dirty-minded catholic girl.

I think you are conflating all sorts of things to avoid saying what you really want to: "I don't like those dirty words and I don't want others to have the right to say them out loud while I'm yachting'

 

Parma

Super Anarchist
3,009
406
here
I disagree with everybody who says that foul or abusive language is to be expected, acceptable, a part of sailboat racing or is somehow unimportant.

I agree with everybody who says that foul or abusive language should be penalized and directly contributes to less or declining participation.

But I disagree that foul or abusive language should be dealt with through a rule 69 hearing. To me the 69 is for things like lying, cheating, violence and the like.

Foul or abusive language should be dealt with as a part of the rules, perhaps by saying that any boat which engages in same must retire. No protests, no hearings, no nothing. You do it, you retire.

In this sense, foul or abusive language is different from debates about facts or rules regarding starts, mark roundings or other situations where boats meet which need mediation and adjudication.

Foul language on the other hand is a cut and dried fact not subject to interpretation. I know that somebody is going to say that “yes it is subject to interpretation” but no, it’s not. There are no shades of gray. You all know how your language is intended.

 

OutofOffice

Member
374
27
Texas
Foul or abusive language should be dealt with as a part of the rules, perhaps by saying that any boat which engages in same must retire. No protests, no hearings, no nothing. You do it, you retire.
And who would enforce this?

No protest, no hearing? And you expect that participation will increase? That’s a special kind of dense.

 

trimfast

Anarchist
593
88
No protest, no hearing? And you expect that participation will increase? That’s a special kind of dense.
Special is right. If you can't beat another boat on the water, and you want them to retire over language then let me tell you right now, fuck off. Why should anyone be forced to retire of a few choice words. Did the language another person used cost you the race? Not one chance. 

 
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LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
4,364
596
Myrtle Beach,
paid, professional sportspeople are related in precisely what way to volunteer weekend warrior hobbyists?
Pro's are generally the standard to which hobbyists aspire 

Fantasy leagues in which hobbyists can control pros are big business

Pro-Am events (even in sailing) are a feature at major regattas and golf tournaments

Hobbyists purchase gear based in part on endorsements or affinity to pros 

Jersey sales are a huge business for all pro sports 

you ever watch a group of kids playing? 

 
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LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
4,364
596
Myrtle Beach,
Abusive behavior should not be tolerated, much less practiced. 

The issue is what is abusive in this era of both "snowflakes" seeking to be offended /outraged and evolved standards of public discourse.

Somebody yelling on the water is less problematic than in the bar or clubhouse afterwards. Leave the emotion during the competition. 

 

Parma

Super Anarchist
3,009
406
here
And who would enforce this?

No protest, no hearing? And you expect that participation will increase? That’s a special kind of dense.
It should, like some other infractions, be self enforcing.

Most situations like this are due to loudmouth crews, not owners. Owners call on whether to RET or not.

Some people barge, foul, hit buoys or other boats and continue on. Some people don't.

 

OutofOffice

Member
374
27
Texas
It should, like some other infractions, be self enforcing.

Most situations like this are due to loudmouth crews, not owners. Owners call on whether to RET or not.

Some people barge, foul, hit buoys or other boats and continue on. Some people don't.
The difference between hitting a mark and self penalizing a turn vs using “profanity” (not clearly defined yet) and self penalizing with a retirement is not even close. So if I call you an idiot, does that constitute a violation?

 

trimfast

Anarchist
593
88
The difference between hitting a mark and self penalizing a turn vs using “profanity” (not clearly defined yet) and self penalizing with a retirement is not even close. So if I call you an idiot, does that constitute a violation?
The difference is hitting/missing a mark, fouling someone at the start or on course is obtaining an theoretical advantage. Language is never an advantage to the race course, and by definition, there is no need ever for a penalty.   Not to mention, if any curse word is banned, then you will have to ban every linked synonym which is beyond ridiculous. 

 

OutofOffice

Member
374
27
Texas
.Somebody yelling on the water is less problematic than in the bar or clubhouse afterwards. Leave the emotion during the competition. 
That’s all I’m trying to say. Leave room for “emotions” during competition. Everyone else at the clubhouse or whatever, have at them. 

I don’t drag what happened on the race course to land. Once we’re back, it’s all good again. I look at it the same as sparring with a friend. When we’re competing, it’s on. Once the fights over, the slates clean. Unless you did something exceptionally stupid at which point you’ll receive the adequate dose of ribbing you deserve. Remember that, because I’m bound to screw up and you’ll get your pay back.

 

ScowLover

Anarchist
772
52
Wisconsin
What would be a reasonable request?    
At a world championship: I gave you permission to haul your keel boat out to repair that gouge in your keel caused by hitting something on the way in. Now you are buffing the an area that didn't suffer any damage. Stop buffing right now. 

Any given weekend: Hey support boat, please stop making giant waves as soon as the competitor you are supporting rounds the mark. 

Any given weekend: Hey local regatta participant - please don't tie your boat up so it blocks the only ramp for our guests who need to drive home tonight

I would contend that if any of the above resulted in an answer like "pound sand," misconduct has occurred. 

 

Gone Drinking

Super Anarchist
1,402
48
I disagree with everybody who says that foul or abusive language is to be expected, acceptable, a part of sailboat racing or is somehow unimportant.

I agree with everybody who says that foul or abusive language should be penalized and directly contributes to less or declining participation.

But I disagree that foul or abusive language should be dealt with through a rule 69 hearing. To me the 69 is for things like lying, cheating, violence and the like.

Foul or abusive language should be dealt with as a part of the rules, perhaps by saying that any boat which engages in same must retire. No protests, no hearings, no nothing. You do it, you retire.

In this sense, foul or abusive language is different from debates about facts or rules regarding starts, mark roundings or other situations where boats meet which need mediation and adjudication.

Foul language on the other hand is a cut and dried fact not subject to interpretation. I know that somebody is going to say that “yes it is subject to interpretation” but no, it’s not. There are no shades of gray. You all know how your language is intended.
Who decides what is foul language.  I have no children and have a potty mouth, don't like that well to fucking bad.  Biden uses the word fuck and it gets broadcast and that is fine - Ivanna gets called a cunt and no repercussions.  Many words that just a few years ago would have had the censors going crazy are now the norm.   Anal, ass, bitch, douche, to name a few are perfectly fine.  The N word is even ok if you are black.  And that is only here in the USA.  Other places have different definition of foul language.  So I ask again - who decides what is foul language. 

 

OutofOffice

Member
374
27
Texas
How boat staggered starts and split the race into two classes.

One for those who can't tolerate the word 'cunt', and one for those who can.
It already is.

We have Spin and Non-Spin. Just saying, I’ve never heard a spin boat complain about language.

 




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