Snowflakes and sailing
- Thread starter SteveC
- Start date
Somebody Else
a person of little consequence
Mozzy Sails
Super Anarchist
Erm, yes, my point was about abuse. A few posters were saying there should be no rules 69, or rule 69 should be thing for the courts, not protest committees. My point was there are things, which aren't illegal but shouldn't be apart of sailing, like abuse and deliberate / premeditated cheating.
Secondly, I used the family members as an example, as a rhetorical question. How would you feel if it was your family being sworn at? I did readers may not have much sympathy for someone charging in a start line getting a verbal lashing, but they may think twice if it was someone they are close to and do have empathy for, like a family member. You obviously interpreted at this being some sort of stance that my family need m protection or something, they don't, I don't have any family who sail (except my partner).
Read my other post to get the clear drift I'm talking about abuse, not specifically swear words, but swear words used at or toward someone can be part of that verbal abuse.
However, after calling me out for bullshit, you now seem to agree with me, a sailor abusing others, especially kids - should be penalized. Well, fuck me, it seems we agree!
Finally, the word fuck is not categorised as 'abuse' to me. I never got close to saying that. Swearing at people, deliberately trying to intimidate or bully them. There's a link to my sailing videos, watch a few and you'll hear some colourful language. I'm not for one moment suggesting letting slip a f-bomb when you stub your tow, mess up a mark rounding, or find yourself over at the situation you find yourself in should be punished or is abuse of those who might overhear.
Do not try to use 1950 standard to a 2020 world? I'm not sure what your point is here. Ill tell you why I don't think abusive language should be part of the sport. I think sailing should be about using boat handling, wind shifts, strategy, sail trim, tides and waves to get a sail boat around the course. I don't think verbally attacking people, hoping they will be fearful or your aggression should be part of the sport and change their actions (i.e. bullying someone out of your way) should be part of the sport.
Let me ask you this. When you attack some verbally, shout them down on the race course, what are you hoping to achieve? You'll say if they don't want to be called a fucker, they shouldn't act like a fucker. But it's clear your just trying to induce an action from them, otherwise you wouldn't be communicating with them at all. But who's to say they were acting like a fucker in the first place? That's just your call. And you're not always right. I've been in enough protests and done enough sailing to know people can be convinced they are righteous, when in fact it's just them being the fucker. It soon descend s in to sailors, whether they're in the right or wrong, abusing / intimidating / bullying other, so they get out of their way, regardless of whose right in terms of RRS. There's plenty of great ways in sailing to get an advantage over competitors using sailing skill, without resorting to bullying. So it's not about snowflakes or anything like that, it's just something that doesn't add to the game of sailing and shouldn't be in the sport.
Finally, your wife. She takes zero shit, somebody talks shit at her, she comes back harder. What specifically does that mean? She shouts louder? She uses naughty words too? She resorts to a bitch fight like walmart mums? Is there an implicit threat of violence when she returns heat with heat? Well, she sounds like a keeper. But I really think the testing of this special skill of hers shouldn't be part of what makes a good sailor good. I don't think many people want to be part of a sport where taking a dressing down from MRS CLEAN is a key determination of your ability to play. It just sounds like a shit sport.
So in conclusion, its not me conflating all sorts of things to avoid saying that I don't like swear words being used. It is you who are conflating things, because it is not the language per-see that I object to it's the use of the language to attack people. My underlying motive is that I want to keep sailing about sailing, not bitching at one another.
Mozzy Sails
Super Anarchist
P.S. CLEAN, you referred to my reasoning as some sort of 'colonialism'. I'm unsure why it is related, so maybe you could explain? It seems to be that you're trying to frame me as some overbearing figure that you, as MR CLEAN are fighting to overthrow in your crusade for 'Free America' and 'Free Speech'. You've probably been pulled on to this track because of the snowflake reference. "I'm American, I have free speech, and anyone who is offended is a snowflake, fuck them!". It seems the OP has baited you in to this stance and you've fell for it.
There some irony that you accuse me of holding you to 1950s standards, but then call me out for something that happened many generations ago and is really nothing to do with me. Who's really living in the past here?
The fight for free speech is a just one, I'm not against you there. I certainly have no links to colonialism personally, or the repression of free speech.
But, specifically in the game of sailing, using language to make someone feel intimidated is not needed. If you don't want people to start above you, close the gap and hold your height. If you don't want people sailing up below you, then trigger faster and roll them. Know the rules and let other know you know them, protest if needs be. You'll soon find that you'll get the respect you deserve. As someone who has built up the sailing skills to hold my own in a race, I object to others getting the same advantage, not because they're good at sailing, but because they're an aggressive, abusive angry person. I want the game of sailing to find the best sailors, not the best bullies.
You can have your free speech, but the consequence is people will judge you on what you say. When people say abusive language should be part of the sport, then I judge that they are compensating for the sailing skills they lack.
There some irony that you accuse me of holding you to 1950s standards, but then call me out for something that happened many generations ago and is really nothing to do with me. Who's really living in the past here?
The fight for free speech is a just one, I'm not against you there. I certainly have no links to colonialism personally, or the repression of free speech.
But, specifically in the game of sailing, using language to make someone feel intimidated is not needed. If you don't want people to start above you, close the gap and hold your height. If you don't want people sailing up below you, then trigger faster and roll them. Know the rules and let other know you know them, protest if needs be. You'll soon find that you'll get the respect you deserve. As someone who has built up the sailing skills to hold my own in a race, I object to others getting the same advantage, not because they're good at sailing, but because they're an aggressive, abusive angry person. I want the game of sailing to find the best sailors, not the best bullies.
You can have your free speech, but the consequence is people will judge you on what you say. When people say abusive language should be part of the sport, then I judge that they are compensating for the sailing skills they lack.
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When I hear vulgarity I hear at best lazy language choices, but generally weakness. If someone communicating to me must pepper his language with unpleasant language - whether or not that language is vulgar, or consists of "curse" words - I hear a person who lacks confidence in his position. When that person uses language - vulgar or otherwise - to frame me as part of that dialogue, I hear someone who is so unsure of his own standing, that he feels the need to try to reduce mine in order to prevail. When I see a competitor demean or intimidate another competitor, I see someone who lacks either the skill or preparation to win on his own merits. The guy who didn't go up when you called, "Leeward!" probably isn't going to go up when you tell him he's a Fuckwit, either. Flag him, or don't, and continue on your way.
Speak to me how you will. If I find it unpleasant you will not speak to me a second time. I will be sorry because I think my world is better with more inputs and more influences, but you will not be a force of hostility in my life. If you want me to consider modifying my behavior, persuade me; don't try to shame or compel me. I will do the same.
This is not about taking other's people's crap, or not. There is nothing that using language to offend can accomplish that confidence and persuasion cannot accomplish at least as well. There nothing about being brash that makes a person strong. Competence makes a person strong. Perseverance makes a person strong. Drive and desire make a person strong.
If you want to be heard, start by being someone worthy of listening to.
</sermon>
Speak to me how you will. If I find it unpleasant you will not speak to me a second time. I will be sorry because I think my world is better with more inputs and more influences, but you will not be a force of hostility in my life. If you want me to consider modifying my behavior, persuade me; don't try to shame or compel me. I will do the same.
This is not about taking other's people's crap, or not. There is nothing that using language to offend can accomplish that confidence and persuasion cannot accomplish at least as well. There nothing about being brash that makes a person strong. Competence makes a person strong. Perseverance makes a person strong. Drive and desire make a person strong.
If you want to be heard, start by being someone worthy of listening to.
</sermon>
OutofOffice
Member
126 comments and it's still going.
Someone remove this horse. It's been beat to death...
Someone remove this horse. It's been beat to death...
fufkin
Super Anarchist
If this sermon were being delivered from across a relatively empty bar in Glasgow on the tail end of a bottle of scotch, it might be kind of funny...even funnier as the barman escorts you under protection to your cab.
The 'Speak to me how you will. If I find it unpleasant you will not speak to me a second time' part would go over particularly well with the locals, who enjoy some colourful language here and there. Your right. No one would speak to you a second time. They'd have to stoop over to low to hear you wheezing on the bar room floor trying to form your version of a sentence after being summarily clocked.
Par for the course in some jurisdictions.
fufkin
Super Anarchist
Just trying to note that language is a fluid thing. Trying to frame what people can and cannot say to you is not.
Cheers. You have no standing one way or the other with me.
Cheers. You have no standing one way or the other with me.
I was unclear; I'm sorry about that. I have no interest in controlling what anyone else says. I'll just walk away and not reengage. Its telling that your response to my post - which included absolutely nothing from which you could infer that I intended to control anything other than myself and my own environment - was graphically violent. I don't think violence is called for because I don't want to have certain conversations that I find unpleasant.
fufkin
Super Anarchist
Sshow Bob,
I too was perhaps a little harsh, and apologize for the graphic imagery...was just trying to make the point that 'controlling your own environment' might limit the scope of your communications. There are many versions of the Queens English that serve as accurate, compassionate, and purposeful language.
I too was perhaps a little harsh, and apologize for the graphic imagery...was just trying to make the point that 'controlling your own environment' might limit the scope of your communications. There are many versions of the Queens English that serve as accurate, compassionate, and purposeful language.
^^^THIS^^^
(1) Spicing any request with shouting and profanity is generally unproductive. You don't need to read Dale Carnegie to realize that.
(2) If you seriously object to another competitor's conduct, protest him or her.
kinardly
Super Anarchist
Don't know that I completely agree with this but maybe we're just differing on the appropriate context. A wise, senior Air Force officer once told me profanity had a place when the occasion called for instant attention and immediate corrective action, but there is no place in a leader's repertoire for obscenity, and habitual, monotonous swearing was obscene. I was a newly minted Navy ensign at the time, and in danger of becoming a habitual foul mouth.
Dad was right (not for the first time
), the use of profanity loses its shelf life quickly if you go to that well too often. But, establish a behavioral pattern of dealing calmly and rationally with stressful situations and suddenly take the gloves off when you really, REALLY need to make something happen like right now, that gets their attention like nothing else, in my experience.
- Moderator
- #116
Not needed? Sure. But only the most crazed puritan tries to legislate against all the things that are 'not needed'.
intimidation is part of every sport where two people want to occupy the same piece of road/track/field/pitch/court/course and even in those where they don't. The list of champions who don't play head games, talk shit, or use their moves or body language to intimidate their opponents is probably a short one indeed.
"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."
"Winning is the object of the game, but it is not the object of playing the game."
But then again, The Great Dane was only sailing's most successful champion ever; so what did he know? And Stuart Walker is just a no-talent clown who never amounted to anything in sail racing.
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Kevlar Edge
Super Anarchist
If you think Mr. Elvstrom didn't intimidate his competitors then you know nothing about him.
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Plenty of people were understandably intimidated by his skill, versatility, competitive nature and tremendous work ethic. But he was a good sportsman who intimidated no one by shouting, swearing or similar bullying conduct.
If I am wrong in the above assessment, please produce evidence of Elvstrom being sanctioned for bad language. I'm always happy to learn something new.
If I am wrong in the above assessment, please produce evidence of Elvstrom being sanctioned for bad language. I'm always happy to learn something new.
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LionessRacing
Super Anarchist
"Colorful" language, or specific tone, or volume:
Used very sparingly, can have an effect of gaining attention.
Used frequently it has the effect of losing attention.
Used very sparingly, can have an effect of gaining attention.
Used frequently it has the effect of losing attention.
