Start/finish line as an obstruction?

[Recidivist]

The club I help out at held a regatta over Easter for off-the-beach boats.  A last minute shortage of bodies meant we couldn't use the original plan of separate start and finish boats and lines, so the Start line was shortened after the last start and became the finish line.

To avoid confusion, the amended SIs provided that, unless a competitor was starting or finishing, the line was an obstruction.  Theoretically, after the start, if a competitor crossed the line after the start, the duty crew would know that the boat was finishing and record the finish time.

My question is "Does your club do this also?" and "If not, how does your club manage the issue?"

Of course there was one competitor who didn't read the SIs and wasn't familiar with this rule!  We are now tossing around ideas to avoid the situation where this competitor picked up 3 DSQs in one day and then complained that the result was harsh and overly officious!

Comments and ideas welcomed.

 

[Rambler]

Clearly the extent of the problem depends on the number of laps between start and finish.

The more laps the more critical it is to keep non finishers away from the line.

But yes, our club prohibits passing through the line when not finishing. The finishing line is between the clubhouse and a buoy, so not as much as of an obstacle as something sitting in the middle of the course. 

By the way, another way of dealing with the situation is having the start line one side and the finish the other of the same boat. Good if you've got multiple back to back races on the same day. But still don't want a non finisher passing through the finish line.

Of course you could go the other way, call it a gate, and count the laps as each boat goes through.

 

[Bsquared]

For what it’s worth, this used to be pretty standard in Hobie racing.  Competitor’s fault for not reading SIs, but nobody told him after the first one?

 

[Recidivist]

For what it’s worth, this used to be pretty standard in Hobie racing.  Competitor’s fault for not reading SIs, but nobody told him after the first one?

Apparently it is not standard anymore, this was a state championship for H16s.  The class rep gave evidence at a request for redress that it isn't used in Hobie events.

All 3 races were back to back - no opportunity to tell the competitor.  I had an inkling that it was the same boat the last 2 breaches and was going to seek the competitor out on the beach the next morning, but he had already become aware and lodged a request for redress.

 

[Recidivist]

Clearly the extent of the problem depends on the number of laps between start and finish.

The more laps the more critical it is to keep non finishers away from the line.

But yes, our club prohibits passing through the line when not finishing. The finishing line is between the clubhouse and a buoy, so not as much as of an obstacle as something sitting in the middle of the course. 

By the way, another way of dealing with the situation is having the start line one side and the finish the other of the same boat. Good if you've got multiple back to back races on the same day. But still don't want a non finisher passing through the finish line.

Of course you could go the other way, call it a gate, and count the laps as each boat goes through.

We have done the start one side, finish the other but the issue is still the same of non-finishers crossing the line.   Often there will be a large number of boats, sailing different number of laps and with considerable disparity in skill level and thus speed.  Unless we have a dedicated boat counting laps, it becomes mayhem quickly, which is why we planned to use a separate boat and finish line, but illness meant we didn't have the numbers to do that.

 

[Rambler]

We have done the start one side, finish the other but the issue is still the same of non-finishers crossing the line.   Often there will be a large number of boats, sailing different number of laps and with considerable disparity in skill level and thus speed.  Unless we have a dedicated boat counting laps, it becomes mayhem quickly, which is why we planned to use a separate boat and finish line, but illness meant we didn't have the numbers to do that.

Again, it may not suit your circumstances or desired course, but in the title we just ran, the start/ finish line was downwind of the lee turning mark.

As long as you are happy with a downwind finish, it sorts the whole thing out.

 

[Recidivist]

Again, it may not suit your circumstances or desired course, but in the title we just ran, the start/ finish line was downwind of the lee turning mark.

As long as you are happy with a downwind finish, it sorts the whole thing out.

Yep, we've done that as well.  But we often have 60 - 80 boats at a regatta and downwind finishes tend to be very crowded and it's hard getting sail numbers.  If it's a mono regatta, they tend to prefer upwind finishes because there is the opportunity for tactics and making a place or 2 right at the end.

 

[Rambler]

 If it's a mono regatta, they tend to prefer upwind finishes because there is the opportunity for tactics and making a place or 2 right at the end.

Understand, although it can work the other way in skiffs. Just had someone lose first overall place in the last race with a (looking for a non controversial way of putting this) capsize while gybing meters from the line after some 'close tactical interaction' with the eventual winner

 

[The Q]

On the river you have no choice but to allow boat to cross through the line, but we do arrange the courses so generally so that you only come back through once in the race + finish, so we can shorten course easily.

Sometimes on the river they use down wind finishes, so the finished boats aren't in the way of those still arriving..

Up on the broad, we generally have every one come through, always in the same direction on every lap, that way the line can report to the time keeper, Class, then boat number..  We  can have 60 boats, in 6 or 7 classes  going through during every 15 minute period ..   Each class started at 5 minute intervals.

 

[TJSoCal]

Did your SI specifically allow the RC to DSQ a boat breaking it without a hearing? 

If not, unless there was a valid protest & hearing I think the boat would have to be scored in her finishing place. 

 

[TJSoCal]

Additionally, just making the line an obstruction doesn't prohibit boats from crossing it. 

You'd want language that restricts the line as well as defining it as an obstruction so boats approaching it are entitled to room to avoid it. 

And an alternative penalty less than DSQ wouldn't hurt. 

 

[SailingTips.Ca]

The Cow Bay Regatta is one of the "busiest" keelboat and multihull regattas in British Columbia.

The start and finish are somewhat in the middle of the course, albeit off to the side, and per the SIs both are restricted and boats may not pass through unless starting or finishing.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Did your SI specifically allow the RC to DSQ a boat breaking it without a hearing? 

If not, unless there was a valid protest & hearing I think the boat would have to be scored in her finishing place. 

This

Although it ought to be pretty easy to hold a hearing.

FWIW it's pretty common in my experience to have a "closed" start/finish line. Sometimes it just says this exact wording in the SIs, most often followed by a brief statement/explanation at the Skippers' Meeting. This really makes the work load for the Race Committee much easier.

A few times, I've encountered... and used myself, when P.R.O. on occasion... the opposite: the sailors must pass thru the start/finish line at each lap of the course. This makes it much easier to shorten course and to notify boats of anything they might need to know.

FB- Doug

 

[TJSoCal]

Suggested wording from Dick Rose:

After completing the first leg of the course, a boat shall not cross the starting line. A boat shall not cross the finishing line until she is completing the last leg of the course and finishes. A boat that breaks this rule shall not correct her error. However, she will be exonerated if she takes a Two-Turns Penalty (see rule 44.2). This changes rule 28.1. On a leg of the course from W to L or from L to W, boats may leave the line between S and F either to port or to starboard.

For reasons of safety, on legs of the course from W to L or from L to W, the starting and finishing lines and the buoys S and F are, taken together, one obstruction, and therefore rules 19 and 20 may apply between boats while they are approaching and passing it.

 

[Locus]

Our club has done this for years. Used to be unwind or DSQ. Now its  2 turns prior to the next mark and you are good.  People ran afoul and they didn't do it ALL the time so there was some confusion open or closed?? 

This way the penalty is correctable without heroics 

 

[TJSoCal]

Our club has done this for years. Used to be unwind or DSQ. Now its  2 turns prior to the next mark and you are good.  People ran afoul and they didn't do it ALL the time so there was some confusion open or closed?? 

This way the penalty is correctable without heroics 

Yeah, if your objective is to keep boats out of the start/finish area then making a violator unwind just makes it worse

 

[CaptainAhab]

Our club treats the entire line as a obstruction after the start, primarily because we run multiple starts for dinghy’s of all speeds. We typically do 2-3 laps, which could make it more confusing for guys on the boat. 
 

As to the penalty, if it’s in that particular days rules then you need to follow it. They and the rest of the competitors will now read them. 

 

[Recidivist]

Thanks everyone.  Yes, the SIs do provide for DSQ without a hearing, and yes the additional words are there, not just that the line is an obstruction.  And yes, we would like the ability to apply a lesser penalty - DSQ is pretty unfriendly when we want to encourage people to sail and compete.

After many emails yesterday we have settled on 10% scoring penalty as the default.  In an egregious case where a competitor knowingly and deliberately breaches the rule to gain an advantage, the scoring penalty would likely render their advantage nugatory, but in any case the RC could protest and seek disqualification.  If 10% proves to be too little, we can up it in the future.  We will use a separate finish boat and line when the resources are available - I gather this is called a "Hollywood finish"?? (I hadn't heard that term before).

Hopefully we have struck an appropriate balance.  Thanks for the comments and advice.

R

 

[some dude]

Put the SF line to leeward of the leeward mark so no one would ever go through it unless they're finishing. Having a restricted line in the middle of the racecourse takes away a lot of tactical options during the race