Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.

If you are going to put video out make sure you put good video out.

http://www.waszp.com/gallery/waszp-from-above

I am in no way connected to waszp

I see no reason why with a bit of value engineering both boats can't cost about the same. The waszp also looks cool.

If you can't say smoothing against the grain on this forum then just shut it down

 
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MR.CLEAN

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I see no reason why with a bit of value engineering both boats can't cost about the same. The waszp also looks cool.

If you can't say smoothing against the grain on this forum then just shut it down


Isn't the Waszp roughly twice the cost of the UFO? You must be one hell of a 'value engineer' if you think you can fix that problem easily.

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
I see no reason why with a bit of value engineering both boats can't cost about the same. The waszp also looks cool.

If you can't say smoothing against the grain on this forum then just shut it down


Isn't the Waszp roughly twice the cost of the UFO? You must be one hell of a 'value engineer' if you think you can fix that problem easily.
Just one opinion but...

Think the UFO is about $7.5K, while the Wasp is about $11.5K, by the time you are done. Another ~$4K so not so sure its double, but the Wasp is at least ~50% more expensive.

On the downside the Wasp appears to be not as user friendly to learn foiling on - or launch - as the UFO is. On the plus side the Wasp a bit more sleek in terms of marketing (they had a head start to be fair) and imaging - neither of which is maybe a major concern for most UFO purchasers - but perhaps a meaningful advantage of the Wasp is the ready made racing class in that it measures as a legal Moth, while Wasp equally and additionally try to set-up a OD class (which has advantages over Moth and the costs to keep up). I presume UFO will (try to set up an OD class of UFOs) as well but suspect the Wasp has an advantage here. We have also seen the Wasp tack and gybe its way upwind and down.

I really like the UFO as opening access to higher performance boats and foiling to a much wider group than the Wasp will appeal to. Everything suggests its (the UFO) a much better and more affordable platform to learn to foil on than the Wasp would be. The problem is once having acquired the skill... where do you go from there with the UFO? The Wasp offers the next step in for sure ready made racing since it measures as a Moth.

Cool boats both IMHO. Aimed at different targets I am guessing. I am curious to see which will get to critical mass and hope they both do.

 
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BobBill

Super Anarchist
4,611
101
SE Minnesota.
Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.

If you are going to put video out make sure you put good video out.

http://www.waszp.com/gallery/waszp-from-above

I am in no way connected to waszp

I see no reason why with a bit of value engineering both boats can't cost about the same. The waszp also looks cool.

If you can't say smoothing against the grain on this forum then just shut it down
First, if we all saw things the same way...be bored to squat.

Second, for a person who say authored this site to moan about how some view this or that is somewhat illogical and contraintuitive, at best. Like or do not like; keep it to yourself, and if you don't, maybe give those who disagree some leeway...to be nautical and not!

Like I said, Mr. Clark is having fun...that is the point!

Even at that...we make everything one design, we have you to run it...

To each his or her own. Scott or Moth. (Wonder if Flying Scot org spent money here, we would read same comment?)

 
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BobBill

Super Anarchist
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Am cure the Clarks might relish suggestions, though I do know Clark does very well on his own...beats these digressions. If I knew something that might help make that wee boat sail better...but I know squat.

 

MidPack

Super Anarchist
3,645
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undecided
Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.

If you are going to put video out make sure you put good video out.

http://www.waszp.com/gallery/waszp-from-above

I am in no way connected to waszp

I see no reason why with a bit of value engineering both boats can't cost about the same. The waszp also looks cool.

If you can't say smoothing against the grain on this forum then just shut it down
Just because some of us have different views, how does that mean we're "negative or attacking anyone?" Shoe on the other foot?

As far as I can tell, this is father and son developing a new low cost user friendly foiler on a limited budget - not a big commercial enterprise with a marketing budget (for better videos) or a group of 'value engineers.' And they've clearly laid out there design brief, if others have something different in mind, let others build it.

Let's applaud them for 'entering the arena' and give them the benefit of the doubt as they work toward production.

 

BobBill

Super Anarchist
4,611
101
SE Minnesota.
MidPack...+1...

Yes, we always get the governance we deserve.

And never argue with a fool, some foolishness sticks and the fool likes it...you can sub "pig for "fool...which is original I think.

Cubs need to break out bats!

 
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Dave Clark

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845
Rhode Island
Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.

If you are going to put video out make sure you put good video out.

http://www.waszp.com/gallery/waszp-from-above
Okay now that's an straightforward qualitative comparison. I can apply knowledge to this in the service of truth. Let's get down to business!

What you're seeing in the two different videos is primarily two different sets of wind conditions. One is a steady 10-12 knot southerly in newport. One is a gusty westerly shore breeze of 5-15 in Niantic Bay. You have to sheet a lot going into and out of puffs. And then if you want to lock in on a good heel angle and go straight, you want to be playing the sheet a bit anyway. Not so profoundly necessary in steady breeze. I prefer to put the longest non-boring takes I can get on the internet, with intent to inform. We put up what we get. I left the boat getting bumped up by billy's wake around 4:55 because that's what upwash does to T-foils and it shows that the hull catches the boat square and keeps it moving. We'll put together more sales-y stuff about racing around buoys when we get the time and the right conditions.

The UFO and Waszp have functionally identical control systems. In the air, they're both moths. Moth sailors who have sailed the UFO have confirmed that we've hit this goal. However, when you lower the ride height on the UFO, the anhedral and volume in our float package actually arrests roll like training wheels on a bicycle and makes it more stable when learning to fly than on a Waszp. Most days I sail with the ride height on high because that's the level I should be training at now. At that elevation, the hull still arrests roll as seen in 6:15. While it doesn't bounce you back up as much as at lower heights (see More Foiling UFO Encounters 0:39), it enables a safe reset by keeping the speed on in a way that burying a wing wouldn't. Apply the best technologies for their best application. Centerline foils+cat hulls= bike with training wheels.

Now, the Waszp is a masterpiece of industrial design. AMAC and Harry nailed their target and I'm hugely impressed. I've spent a good amount of time with the Waszp now and honestly I'm excited for the sport as a whole. However, it's just dangerous for anybody to think that it is stable or sails itself. It's still a moth. I was there with the UFO for the whole of that week in newport sharing space with the Waszp. In the right hands, its cool to watch. AMAC (top 5), Harry (top 10) and a number of other skilled hands did a good job of showcasing that round the clock to keep hopefuls inspired. In the wrong hands, people flounder, swim, crash if they're lucky enough to fly and then swim some more. Both boats have foibles. Constant instability is one that the waszp has and Andrew has made it clear that he thinks its a good thing to have, as it gates access to hydrofoils to those who are willing to be on their toes constantly. He may be right. Further, the market response seems to be justifying his choice of price point at least at present volume. We set different goals and it's great that we both have achieved some version of them. In a number of ways, these products are not in competition but instead compliment one another.

Regarding the price difference. I'd love to have a plant in China. We've done what we can and expect to only get better with volume, but there's nothing quite like labor a $4.45 an hour.

Also our boat looks beautiful. The color black and sharp corners are rapidly going out of fashion again. Just look at the latest cars from mercedes benz. Harsh is out, smooth and friendly is in. All of this is 100% subjective, of course.

DRC

 
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DTA

Anarchist
746
12
San Antonio
Regarding "beauty", I don't care if the boat looked like a turnip - as long as it provides a relatively stable platform for learning to foil. I find it odd that anyone would say: "yep, it functionally does everything i want it to do, but it's just not pretty enough for me to buy."

 

eliboat

Super Anarchist
2,244
624
The UFO isn't ugly. You guys ever seen a thunderbird....flying Scott? Jesus Christ.
Let's not go and cite half-century old designs for examples
Why not? Ugly is ugly and pretty is pretty. SA puts up images of classic beauties every now and again. I guess by your logic, they no longer count as pretty because they're old. I'm not saying that the UFO is pretty, but it certainly isn't ugly. It's definitely different than what a lot of people are used to seeing, but there are plenty of clever details that make the boat pleasant to look at. Anyways, people griping about how the boat is bad for one reason or another as it relates to their own old age or lack of ability is really strange. If it's not your cup of tea, no worries! Nobody is forcing you to buy or sail a UFO. I do have to take issue though with the notion that it takes an excess of skill to sail this thing. I got in it a few weeks ago in marginal shifty conditions on the Charles river. I headed off the dock on port tack and I was foiling before I had to tack back onto Starboard as I approached the Boston shore. Before that 1/4 mile of port tack sailing, I had never foiled before.

 
Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.

If you are going to put video out make sure you put good video out.

http://www.waszp.com/gallery/waszp-from-above
Okay now that's an straightforward qualitative comparison. I can apply knowledge to this in the service of truth. Let's get down to business!
What you're seeing in the two different videos is primarily two different sets of wind conditions. One is a steady 10-12 knot southerly in newport. One is a gusty westerly shore breeze of 5-15 in Niantic Bay. You have to sheet a lot going into and out of puffs. And then if you want to lock in on a good heel angle and go straight, you want to be playing the sheet a bit anyway. Not so profoundly necessary in steady breeze. I prefer to put the longest non-boring takes I can get on the internet, with intent to inform. We put up what we get. I left the boat getting bumped up by billy's wake around 4:55 because that's what upwash does to T-foils and it shows that the hull catches the boat square and keeps it moving. We'll put together more sales-y stuff about racing around buoys when we get the time and the right conditions.

The UFO and Waszp have functionally identical control systems. In the air, they're both moths. Moth sailors who have sailed the UFO have confirmed that we've hit this goal. However, when you lower the ride height on the UFO, the anhedral and volume in our float package actually arrests roll like training wheels on a bicycle and makes it more stable when learning to fly than on a Waszp. Most days I sail with the ride height on high because that's the level I should be training at now. At that elevation, the hull still arrests roll as seen in 6:15. While it doesn't bounce you back up as much as at lower heights (see More Foiling UFO Encounters 0:39), it enables a safe reset by keeping the speed on in a way that burying a wing wouldn't. Apply the best technologies for their best application. Centerline foils+cat hulls= bike with training wheels.

Now, the Waszp is a masterpiece of industrial design. AMAC and Harry nailed their target and I'm hugely impressed. I've spent a good amount of time with the Waszp now and honestly I'm excited for the sport as a whole. However, it's just dangerous for anybody to think that it is stable or sails itself. It's still a moth. I was there with the UFO for the whole of that week in newport sharing space with the Waszp. In the right hands, its cool to watch. AMAC (top 5), Harry (top 10) and a number of other skilled hands did a good job of showcasing that round the clock to keep hopefuls inspired. In the wrong hands, people flounder, swim, crash if they're lucky enough to fly and then swim some more. Both boats have foibles. Constant instability is one that the waszp has and Andrew has made it clear that he thinks its a good thing to have, as it gates access to hydrofoils to those who are willing to be on their toes constantly. He may be right. Further, the market response seems to be justifying his choice of price point at least at present volume. We set different goals and it's great that we both have achieved some version of them. In a number of ways, these products are not in competition but instead compliment one another.

Regarding the price difference. I'd love to have a plant in China. We've done what we can and expect to only get better with volume, but there's nothing quite like labor a $4.45 an hour.

Also our boat looks beautiful. The color black and sharp corners are rapidly going out of fashion again. Just look at the latest cars from mercedes benz. Harsh is out, smooth and friendly is in. All of this is 100% subjective, of course.

DRC
Great positive reply thanks out trick or treating with my daughter. Hopefully the UFO will be an equally successful export from US. Will fully digest and reply if I have any questions later
 

Reht

Super Anarchist
2,758
6
The UFO's looks are different from most boats people will have seen before. A hard-decked catamaran, but it's so small compared to most boats that it's going to look different, I think it might just take a bit to adjust to how it looks. I can see a photo of a traditional monohull and imagine it in almost 3D space, but I find it hard to "picture" the UFO the same way without having seen it.

 
DRC, I have given you the courtesy of watching your videos again and to use your phase let's get down to business.

If success was merely a result of pure enthusiasm and hard work you richly disserve success.

I have taken on board what you say about the sailing videos and accept fully your explanation. In this digital age what we put out into the world we lose control of. Don't want to sound all high and mighty but consider what your media is actually communicating, I am sure it is hard when you are so excited about what you have created. I look forward to seeing some high quality video that really sells the UFO.

Still, and I may be at odds, have an issue with the aesthetics. IMHO the deck hull joint is a big turn off and a throw back to the 60/70s. Looking at some stills however it is clear structurally how critical that joint is and it is probably the best compromise considering cost, quality and robustness. I am an engineer and can't propose a more appealing aesthetic solution. I have however seen time and again how industrial designers can transform an engineer's ugly duckling into a swan. It however sounds as if you are to far down your tooling root to consider any major changes. Colour selection can also completely alter a design, I look forward to seeing a black UFO.

Your comments about the Waszp and the difference with the UFO after re watching the foiling week presentation makes good sense. I think you have met your creeping mission statement well.

I know some in this forum have been upset with what I have been saying but I am just curious from a design and engineering point of view. I thought I was being more constructive than 'Can it do port tack ? That would be awesome', 'can it tack and gybe'.

Anyway as always I was wish you all the best

good luck

Tink

 

Team_GBR

Super Anarchist
1,025
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The Medal Race
Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.
You haven't sailed a foiler, have you. Anybody who has will tell you that the UFO will be by far the easier boat to sail, and Dave has confirmed it above. The boat is clearly designed to make learning foiling easier and "safer" by being less likely to capsize. If you can foil a Waszp or Moth, the UFO will be no trouble but if you can foil a UFO, a Waszp or Moth will still be a step up.

 

Rasputin22

Rasputin22
13,920
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Maybe TInk and I can wait until Phillipe Starck designs a foiler and get the look right... :rolleyes:

I was trained as an Industrial Designer and make my living these days designing sailboats (and the occasional powerboat) but don't find anything about the UFO that offends my design esthetic.

 
Not being negative or attacking anyone but the video of the UFO looks like very hard work for a very skilled and experienced sailor compared to say the waszp that looks as if it can sail itself. I personally think the catamaran concept with the central foils has some control issues.
You haven't sailed a foiler, have you. Anybody who has will tell you that the UFO will be by far the easier boat to sail, and Dave has confirmed it above. The boat is clearly designed to make learning foiling easier and "safer" by being less likely to capsize. If you can foil a Waszp or Moth, the UFO will be no trouble but if you can foil a UFO, a Waszp or Moth will still be a step up.
Rather than scan reading a few old posts read them all of you are going the comment, you clearly haven't read post 375 before you posted 376. The concept clearly should be easier to sail than a moth or Waszp but the video evidence is to the contrary and Dave has explained why. I am not attacking anybody or anything just curious.

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,605
233
Sydney
Why do the negative anarchists work so hard to ruin these good threads? I guess because it's Anarchy.

This boat will succeed, it's created by some very clever people who have the skills, knowledge and backing to make it happen, and it's designed specifically for the world's biggest market, in particular, compared to the other foilers its well suited to unfit, overweight Americans, who want to tie their boat up to a dock, which seems to be very important, but something I do not understand because I do not live there. I am not sure that it will sell outside the US but then it does not need to to be successful.

They will build it right, they know how to. I am a bit suspect of the target price, especially when it's little more than the cost of a set of moth foils, and because the UFO carbon foils do not seem that much different to moth foils, and may in fact use even more carbon. Target price and selling price variance is nothing new in manufacturing. We will see.

It looks to sail about as well as a WASZP, which is impressive compared to anything other than a moth. Neither seem to be up to the speed of any decent moth from the last 10 years. But its not about speed, it's about enjoying a new sailing sensation, smooth, quiet and faster than what sailing used to be, and doing it more easily and cheaply than moth sailing. The UFO will be easier, The WASZP may well be better in more challenging conditions. Having a hull touch water at more than 15kts tends to put the brakes on, and the windward UFO hull is always going to touch waves first. But the UFO is supposedly less likely to nose over, I am not sure why with its very short bows.

Guys these foiling boats will not convert the thousands who enjoy sailing slow boats, but if they attract a few new people to our sport then the whole sport will benefit. They need our support. If they end up being racing classes all good, stranger things have happened in the past, to a weird little beach cat called a Hobie, and a tough little picnic boat called a Laser. Wish them luck.

 

Board skiff

Super Anarchist
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If the look does concern you, I think it can be softened by using the flange as a pin stripe (nice navy blue on the white hull?) or by having two-tone hulls - say gun metal grey below and orange above.

 

BobBill

Super Anarchist
4,611
101
SE Minnesota.
Three hundred eighty-one...dings. Not too shabby! But winter comes, things to do...

BTW...how do I put up picture stored on computer now?

 
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